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This is true, but also underlines the very point the article was making. In the United States, Christianity is the default. Characters are typically only identi

This is true, but also underlines the very point the article was making. In the United States, Christianity is the default. Characters are typically only identified if the stray from the default. Furthermore, given the sheer imbalance of identities in the country, it’s a disingenuous to claim that say Batman is equally likely to be Zoroastrian, because he’s not explicitly stated not to be.

throwaway894345 5y ago
> This is true, but also underlines the very point the article was making. In the United States, Christianity is the default. Characters are typically only identified if the stray from the default But Christianity isn’t the default, secular is the default. When there are identifiably Christian characters, they are often some cringey stereotype (the religious clique in “Easy A”, for example). See also the link about “Hollywood’s religion problem” for many more examples. Hollywood clearly, starkly distinguishes between “normal” characters and “Christian” characters. > Furthermore, given the sheer imbalance of identities in the country, it’s a disingenuous to claim that say Batman is equally likely to be Zoroastrian, because he’s not explicitly stated not to be. Right, because that would be unjust. Justice demands proportional representation, and you can’t have proportional representation and equal representation. If I create a cult tomorrow I shouldn’t have the same representation as Atheists or Hindus, who constitute a much larger share of the country.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > But Christianity isn’t the default, secular is the default. Says whom? Not-strongly-denominational non-to-weakly (note the “a”; not a typo for “weekly”) practicing Christian, or similarly weakly-attached Jewish, seems to be the norm, outside of showed focussing on a distinct and different subculture. > When there are identifiably Christian characters, they are often some cringey stereotype I don't think that's really all that much more true than other identities, and it tends to be most true in the same genres and places that there same thing is done with other, including nonreligious identities. I mean, its probably true of most identities in most of TV and film, but that’s Sturgeon’s Law, not a particular problem of Christian characters.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > Says whom? I suspect just about every avid connoisseur of American media who isn’t out to peddle a narrative, but I didn’t do a survey at our last quarterly meeting so I can’t tell for sure. :) > Not-strongly-denominational non-to-weakly (note the “a”; not a typo for “weekly”) practicing Christian, or similarly weakly-attached Jewish, seems to be the norm, outside of showed focussing on a distinct and different subculture. Of the characters who are identifiably religious I could agree that Christians and Jews are a majority, but I strongly suspect that they outnumber irreligious characters. Consider that the mainstay of virtually all pop culture are drugs, alcohol, and premarital sex, most or all of which are embraced by the “normal” characters but taboo among American Christians. When a character is identifiably Christian, they are almost always portrayed as judgmental of those things, which is to say they contrast from the “normal” characters. The default has to be some identity which jives with the popular culture, and since Christian ethos are incompatible with the bread and butter of pop culture, I am certain that the default is not Christian. > I don't think that's really all that much more true than other identities It seems to be different for the irreligious identities. Pop culture doesn’t rarely leans on cliches to identify a character that doesn’t believe, because it doesn’t need to, they are the default. But yes, I agree that for other identities, writers need to do something to indicate the identity and per Sturgeon’s Law (TIL, thanks) most of that is lazy stereotyping.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > Consider that the mainstay of virtually all pop culture are drugs, alcohol, and premarital sex, most or all of which are embraced by the “normal” characters but taboo among American Christians. Leaving aside the question of whether those are the mainstays of popular culture (the traditional formulation would drop alcohol and add rock-and-roll), that seems...distorted. While attitudes on some of those things differ between American Christians and the general public, it doesn't really seem at all defensible to claim that either drugs, alcohol, or premarital sex are “taboo” among America Christians, generally. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/31/half-of-u-s-christians-say-casual-sex-between-consenting-adults-is-sometimes-or-always-acceptable/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/31/half-of-u-s... https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/26/religious-americans-are-less-likely-to-endorse-legal-marijuana-for-recreational-use/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/26/religious-a... https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/03/06/americans-drinking-habits-vary-by-faith/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/03/06/americans-d...
- jonathankoren 5y ago
  > But Christianity isn’t the default, secular is the default. When there are identifiably Christian characters, they are often some cringey stereotype (the religious clique in “Easy A”, for You seem to believe that in your face conservative white evangelical Protestants are the only Christians. This speaks more to your own biases than society’s. Every poll of Americans and religions shows Christianity as by far the most popular choice. There is simply no way to square your idea that nonreligious is the default when over 70% of Americans identify as Christian.[0] As for representation, I have no way verifying this, but I suspect there are more Roman Catholic characters in American film and television than conservative white evangelicals Protestants. If for no other reason than mass, iconography, and religious tchotchkes photography well. Hell, Catholics have the entire horror genre on lock. WEPs have what? Footloose? [0] https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/
  - alentist 5y ago
    > Every poll of Americans and religions shows Christianity as by far the most popular choice. There is simply no way to square your idea that nonreligious is the default when over 70% of Americans identify as Christian.[0] GP is talking about representation in film. That's what this whole subthread is about.
    - jonathankoren 5y ago
      When you're the default, you have representation in all media, even without it being explicitly stated, because the audience already assumes it. Why? Because there's no reason to believe that the character is anything except the most common case in society. Some would even describe being the most common case and not having to explicitly be called out for representation as privileged.
      - alentist 5y ago
        > When you're the default, you have representation in all media Not true. > there's no reason to believe that the character is anything except the most common case in society Not true. You are simply throwing out baseless assertions.

throwaway894345 5y ago

> This is true, but also underlines the very point the article was making. In the United States, Christianity is the default. Characters are typically only identified if the stray from the default But Christianity isn’t the default, secular is the default. When there are identifiably Christian characters, they are often some cringey stereotype (the religious clique in “Easy A”, for example). See also the link about “Hollywood’s religion problem” for many more examples. Hollywood clearly, starkly distinguishes between “normal” characters and “Christian” characters. > Furthermore, given the sheer imbalance of identities in the country, it’s a disingenuous to claim that say Batman is equally likely to be Zoroastrian, because he’s not explicitly stated not to be. Right, because that would be unjust. Justice demands proportional representation, and you can’t have proportional representation and equal representation. If I create a cult tomorrow I shouldn’t have the same representation as Atheists or Hindus, who constitute a much larger share of the country.

dragonwriter 5y ago
> But Christianity isn’t the default, secular is the default. Says whom? Not-strongly-denominational non-to-weakly (note the “a”; not a typo for “weekly”) practicing Christian, or similarly weakly-attached Jewish, seems to be the norm, outside of showed focussing on a distinct and different subculture. > When there are identifiably Christian characters, they are often some cringey stereotype I don't think that's really all that much more true than other identities, and it tends to be most true in the same genres and places that there same thing is done with other, including nonreligious identities. I mean, its probably true of most identities in most of TV and film, but that’s Sturgeon’s Law, not a particular problem of Christian characters.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > Says whom? I suspect just about every avid connoisseur of American media who isn’t out to peddle a narrative, but I didn’t do a survey at our last quarterly meeting so I can’t tell for sure. :) > Not-strongly-denominational non-to-weakly (note the “a”; not a typo for “weekly”) practicing Christian, or similarly weakly-attached Jewish, seems to be the norm, outside of showed focussing on a distinct and different subculture. Of the characters who are identifiably religious I could agree that Christians and Jews are a majority, but I strongly suspect that they outnumber irreligious characters. Consider that the mainstay of virtually all pop culture are drugs, alcohol, and premarital sex, most or all of which are embraced by the “normal” characters but taboo among American Christians. When a character is identifiably Christian, they are almost always portrayed as judgmental of those things, which is to say they contrast from the “normal” characters. The default has to be some identity which jives with the popular culture, and since Christian ethos are incompatible with the bread and butter of pop culture, I am certain that the default is not Christian. > I don't think that's really all that much more true than other identities It seems to be different for the irreligious identities. Pop culture doesn’t rarely leans on cliches to identify a character that doesn’t believe, because it doesn’t need to, they are the default. But yes, I agree that for other identities, writers need to do something to indicate the identity and per Sturgeon’s Law (TIL, thanks) most of that is lazy stereotyping.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > Consider that the mainstay of virtually all pop culture are drugs, alcohol, and premarital sex, most or all of which are embraced by the “normal” characters but taboo among American Christians. Leaving aside the question of whether those are the mainstays of popular culture (the traditional formulation would drop alcohol and add rock-and-roll), that seems...distorted. While attitudes on some of those things differ between American Christians and the general public, it doesn't really seem at all defensible to claim that either drugs, alcohol, or premarital sex are “taboo” among America Christians, generally. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/31/half-of-u-s-christians-say-casual-sex-between-consenting-adults-is-sometimes-or-always-acceptable/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/08/31/half-of-u-s... https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/26/religious-americans-are-less-likely-to-endorse-legal-marijuana-for-recreational-use/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2021/05/26/religious-a... https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/03/06/americans-drinking-habits-vary-by-faith/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/03/06/americans-d...
jonathankoren 5y ago
> But Christianity isn’t the default, secular is the default. When there are identifiably Christian characters, they are often some cringey stereotype (the religious clique in “Easy A”, for You seem to believe that in your face conservative white evangelical Protestants are the only Christians. This speaks more to your own biases than society’s. Every poll of Americans and religions shows Christianity as by far the most popular choice. There is simply no way to square your idea that nonreligious is the default when over 70% of Americans identify as Christian.[0] As for representation, I have no way verifying this, but I suspect there are more Roman Catholic characters in American film and television than conservative white evangelicals Protestants. If for no other reason than mass, iconography, and religious tchotchkes photography well. Hell, Catholics have the entire horror genre on lock. WEPs have what? Footloose? [0] https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/ https://www.pewforum.org/religious-landscape-study/
- alentist 5y ago
  > Every poll of Americans and religions shows Christianity as by far the most popular choice. There is simply no way to square your idea that nonreligious is the default when over 70% of Americans identify as Christian.[0] GP is talking about representation in film. That's what this whole subthread is about.
  - jonathankoren 5y ago
    When you're the default, you have representation in all media, even without it being explicitly stated, because the audience already assumes it. Why? Because there's no reason to believe that the character is anything except the most common case in society. Some would even describe being the most common case and not having to explicitly be called out for representation as privileged.
    - alentist 5y ago
      > When you're the default, you have representation in all media Not true. > there's no reason to believe that the character is anything except the most common case in society Not true. You are simply throwing out baseless assertions.