6 ms·

Matrix has become the messaging app of choice for top-secret communications

43 points by ______- 5y ago

munawwar 5y ago
Wonder what people here think of signal. I find it more user friendly than matrix. Any info about it's security vs matrix?
- gen3 5y ago
  Matrix uses the same encryption as signal, one of their implementations can be found here: https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm
- sschueller 5y ago
  Signal is Moxie and I personally don't trust Moxie and have some issues with his attitude. Does this make signal unsafe, no of course not but I don't trust it even if the encryption is top notch. Also remember you must have a phone number to use signal.
  - failwhaleshark 5y ago
    What specifically caused this distrust?
    - rOOb85 5y ago
      ThEy DiDnT uSe My FaVoRiTe CrYpTo!11! /s
- fragileone 5y ago
  Signal hides metadata better however it's based in the US, you are required to use your phone number as an identifier and Moxie refuses to allow Signal to be decentralised. Security-wise they both use the double-ratchet algorithm to encrypt messages.
- m-p-3 5y ago
  What about Briar? https://briarproject.org/ https://briarproject.org/ Seems like it's decentralized and uses Tor natively.
  - ______- 5y ago
    There's also another obscure and less well known messaging app called CWTCH https://cwtch.im/ https://cwtch.im/ It's still in development though...
  - derbOac 5y ago
    I agree Briar always has seemed even more decentralized and security conscious than Matrix. I tried to use Briar with my family for awhile and it worked well but its always on function was a bit difficult on mobile (it seems like something that would be worthwhile for some circumstances but maybe not worth the cost for just chatting about groceries). However, in reading the article, they discussed group communication functions in Matrix, which were absent from Briar for awhile. They also mention that Matrix is planing on introducing mesh networking, which is very similar to Briar. I found this extremely interesting. It seems like Briar and Matrix are sort of coming full circle to each other. I'd love to see either or both take off.
- junon 5y ago
  My issue with Matrix is the philsophy attached to it. The founders and its most vitriolic supports are activists, through and through, and view Signal as a messaging app for activists. When the Cellebrite malware was added to Signal by the developer(s) I mentioned that Cellebrite was used by legitimate phone carriers to transfer data between an old phone and a new phone. I asked why my elderly mother, with whom I speak to over Signal, should be liable for a potentially broken Cellebrite machine (costing thousands) if the Signal malware were to break it. There's no precedent on whether or not she'd be liable, so there's a possibility she would be. She never consented to her phone being used as a weapon. She doesn't understand the stuff going on. She uses Signal because it's simple, easy to understand, I'm just a few button presses away (we don't live near each other) and the call quality is unmatched. I got a few very angry responses, telling me to uninstall Signal if I wasn't willing to be an activist for their agenda. They were perfectly okay with their philosophy being projected onto their users and didn't see any issue in the fact that users did not consent to it. Which is strange, because they're annoyed with other Big Tech firms doing... well, the same exact thing. I really hope Matrix improves its UX since I would immediately switch my family over to it if they could just understand how it worked.
  - feanaro 5y ago
    > My issue with Matrix is the philsophy attached to it. Did you mean to say Signal here instead of Matrix?
    - junon 5y ago
      Indeed, went back to edit and noprocrast hit :| Matrix is fine.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  Signal as a network is controlled by a single individual, or small staff of individuals. There is a central server. Also there is no way to use signal anonymously. It is useful for talking to people you know in real life, but that's it. As to the user friendliness, I find more infuriating bugs (and "features") with signal these days, although that was not always the case. For example, if history is not restored on launch it is lost forever, this is a problem if you're e.g. going to a privacy hostile nation and need your history clean for the trio but want to restore it when you get back. Another particularly heinous violation is that the signal app has code in it that slows it's functionality if the version is out of date, pressuring you to update.
  - rOOb85 5y ago
    > Another particularly heinous violation is that the signal app has code in it that slows it's functionality if the version is out of date, pressuring you to update. Can you show me more info or the offending code?
jmcnulty 5y ago
I tried this recently for the first time using Elements and have struggled with it. There's no message threading, so it's very hard to discover the history and flow of a subject when it's embedded in a larger conversation. I'll keep an eye on this and check back from time to time, but right now it's not for me.
- maelito 5y ago
  Same for mattermost. Both are unmanageable in my opinion once you've used Zulip, Slack or more recently RocketChat. There isn't even a date for the release of threads in any of the available client :/
upforgrabs 5y ago
Handing bazookas over to civilians without safety instructions (or a safety ops team) is a bit comical.
slim 5y ago
I'm amazed at how much PR matrix gets for an opensource project not supported by any company. Congratulations to all supporters
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure the developers of Element are sponsoring matrix and also running servers as business. So it's not entirely non profit, though it's definitely open source and there's no limited 'community edition' :)
- ncmncm 5y ago
  Eh? Matrix is heavily supported by Element (nee Vector), which operates development on the workhorse "home server" implementation, Synapse, and its hoped-to-be successor, Dendrite, and operates a business providing cloudy private homeservers.
libx 5y ago
Top secret communications by people that register at matrix.org that uses Google`s recaptcha that collect their IPs? Strange, as Google and privacy have nothing in common.
- throwntoday 5y ago
  Recaptcha/Google's pervasiveness on the internet is one of the most annoying things I repeatedly have to deal with. It's easy enough to block all google servers at the hosts level. But then you have lazy developers for government websites using it and need to enable them. They've just wound themselves so tightly into the internet it's near impossible to exist without interacting with their services.
- emptyparadise 5y ago
  Matrix is decentralized, you don't have to use a server that connects to Google services.
wpdev_63 5y ago
Briar[0] is suppose to be a bit more secure than matrix which uses google captcha. [0]:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.briarproject.briar.android&hl=en_US&gl=US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.briarproje...
- rakoo 5y ago
  Matrix doesn't "use google captcha". Matrix.org, one instance among so many, uses google captcha. Matrix is a federated protocol, so you can choose another instance or setup your own

43 points by ______- 5y ago

Wonder what people here think of signal. I find it more user friendly than matrix. Any info about it's security vs matrix?

gen3 5y ago
Matrix uses the same encryption as signal, one of their implementations can be found here: https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm https://gitlab.matrix.org/matrix-org/olm
sschueller 5y ago
Signal is Moxie and I personally don't trust Moxie and have some issues with his attitude. Does this make signal unsafe, no of course not but I don't trust it even if the encryption is top notch. Also remember you must have a phone number to use signal.
- failwhaleshark 5y ago
  What specifically caused this distrust?
  - rOOb85 5y ago
    ThEy DiDnT uSe My FaVoRiTe CrYpTo!11! /s
fragileone 5y ago
Signal hides metadata better however it's based in the US, you are required to use your phone number as an identifier and Moxie refuses to allow Signal to be decentralised. Security-wise they both use the double-ratchet algorithm to encrypt messages.
m-p-3 5y ago
What about Briar? https://briarproject.org/ https://briarproject.org/ Seems like it's decentralized and uses Tor natively.
- ______- 5y ago
  There's also another obscure and less well known messaging app called CWTCH https://cwtch.im/ https://cwtch.im/ It's still in development though...
- derbOac 5y ago
  I agree Briar always has seemed even more decentralized and security conscious than Matrix. I tried to use Briar with my family for awhile and it worked well but its always on function was a bit difficult on mobile (it seems like something that would be worthwhile for some circumstances but maybe not worth the cost for just chatting about groceries). However, in reading the article, they discussed group communication functions in Matrix, which were absent from Briar for awhile. They also mention that Matrix is planing on introducing mesh networking, which is very similar to Briar. I found this extremely interesting. It seems like Briar and Matrix are sort of coming full circle to each other. I'd love to see either or both take off.
junon 5y ago
My issue with Matrix is the philsophy attached to it. The founders and its most vitriolic supports are activists, through and through, and view Signal as a messaging app for activists. When the Cellebrite malware was added to Signal by the developer(s) I mentioned that Cellebrite was used by legitimate phone carriers to transfer data between an old phone and a new phone. I asked why my elderly mother, with whom I speak to over Signal, should be liable for a potentially broken Cellebrite machine (costing thousands) if the Signal malware were to break it. There's no precedent on whether or not she'd be liable, so there's a possibility she would be. She never consented to her phone being used as a weapon. She doesn't understand the stuff going on. She uses Signal because it's simple, easy to understand, I'm just a few button presses away (we don't live near each other) and the call quality is unmatched. I got a few very angry responses, telling me to uninstall Signal if I wasn't willing to be an activist for their agenda. They were perfectly okay with their philosophy being projected onto their users and didn't see any issue in the fact that users did not consent to it. Which is strange, because they're annoyed with other Big Tech firms doing... well, the same exact thing. I really hope Matrix improves its UX since I would immediately switch my family over to it if they could just understand how it worked.
- feanaro 5y ago
  > My issue with Matrix is the philsophy attached to it. Did you mean to say Signal here instead of Matrix?
  - junon 5y ago
    Indeed, went back to edit and noprocrast hit :| Matrix is fine.
betwixthewires 5y ago
Signal as a network is controlled by a single individual, or small staff of individuals. There is a central server. Also there is no way to use signal anonymously. It is useful for talking to people you know in real life, but that's it. As to the user friendliness, I find more infuriating bugs (and "features") with signal these days, although that was not always the case. For example, if history is not restored on launch it is lost forever, this is a problem if you're e.g. going to a privacy hostile nation and need your history clean for the trio but want to restore it when you get back. Another particularly heinous violation is that the signal app has code in it that slows it's functionality if the version is out of date, pressuring you to update.
- rOOb85 5y ago
  > Another particularly heinous violation is that the signal app has code in it that slows it's functionality if the version is out of date, pressuring you to update. Can you show me more info or the offending code?

jmcnulty 5y ago

I tried this recently for the first time using Elements and have struggled with it. There's no message threading, so it's very hard to discover the history and flow of a subject when it's embedded in a larger conversation. I'll keep an eye on this and check back from time to time, but right now it's not for me.

maelito 5y ago
Same for mattermost. Both are unmanageable in my opinion once you've used Zulip, Slack or more recently RocketChat. There isn't even a date for the release of threads in any of the available client :/

upforgrabs 5y ago

Handing bazookas over to civilians without safety instructions (or a safety ops team) is a bit comical.

slim 5y ago

I'm amazed at how much PR matrix gets for an opensource project not supported by any company. Congratulations to all supporters

GekkePrutser 5y ago
I'm pretty sure the developers of Element are sponsoring matrix and also running servers as business. So it's not entirely non profit, though it's definitely open source and there's no limited 'community edition' :)
ncmncm 5y ago
Eh? Matrix is heavily supported by Element (nee Vector), which operates development on the workhorse "home server" implementation, Synapse, and its hoped-to-be successor, Dendrite, and operates a business providing cloudy private homeservers.

libx 5y ago

Top secret communications by people that register at matrix.org that uses Google`s recaptcha that collect their IPs? Strange, as Google and privacy have nothing in common.

throwntoday 5y ago
Recaptcha/Google's pervasiveness on the internet is one of the most annoying things I repeatedly have to deal with. It's easy enough to block all google servers at the hosts level. But then you have lazy developers for government websites using it and need to enable them. They've just wound themselves so tightly into the internet it's near impossible to exist without interacting with their services.
emptyparadise 5y ago
Matrix is decentralized, you don't have to use a server that connects to Google services.

wpdev_63 5y ago

Briar[0] is suppose to be a bit more secure than matrix which uses google captcha. [0]:https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.briarproject.briar.android&hl=en_US&gl=US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=org.briarproje...

rakoo 5y ago
Matrix doesn't "use google captcha". Matrix.org, one instance among so many, uses google captcha. Matrix is a federated protocol, so you can choose another instance or setup your own