4 ms·

Eh, not really. Christmas may have been a product of Christianity (hijacking a pagan holiday...), but it has long since become just a western culture tradition

Eh, not really. Christmas may have been a product of Christianity (hijacking a pagan holiday...), but it has long since become just a western culture tradition with no particular religious significance for a lot of people. Most Christmas movies don't even mention Christ.

whimsicalism 5y ago
> it has long since become just a western culture tradition with no particular religious significance for a lot of people I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life, and the vast majority of people who practice xmas are Christian, even if they are not weekly church attendees. I was raised in an atheist household, we definitely viewed Christmas as a religious thing. Most of the songs are very religious, people go to mass, etc.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life, One is not a Christian because Christianity influenced their culture. > and the vast majority of people who practice xmas are Christian The vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian. Does that make "humanity" a Christian institution?
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > The vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian. Does that make "humanity" a Christian institution? The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. The fact that you incorrectly think that the "vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian" proves my point.
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      > The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. So? Doesn't that just serve to lessen its overall religiousness? I mean, Christmas's traditions are themselves derived from pagan solstice celebrations. Wouldn't that make it a pagan institution by your reasoning? Much like how Christians adopted pre-existing traditions and slapped a Jesus-shaped label on them, people are now slapping a secularity (or, I would argue, consumerist) label on to Christmas traditions.
      - bobthechef 5y ago
        > Christmas's traditions are themselves derived from pagan solstice celebrations Well... [0] > Wouldn't that make it a pagan institution by your reasoning? Even when, say, a previously pagan practice is incorporated into Christianity, it is reinterpreted and given a new meaning, though probably in some way related to the original _by analogy_. This could be done to help the new converts better relate to the new faith and to preserve as much of the good in the previous culture as possible (in general, Catholicism gladly takes in whatever good and reconcilable there is in any culture[1]). In agreement with what you say, this does not make Christianity pagan. Whether this is the same as the secularizing or commercializing or "consumerizing" of Christmas, I don't know. Maybe you could argue that this lumpenreligions are doing something analogous to what I just described, but this seems like a flaky comparison. Besides, secularism is a Christian heresy, so it's more like a heretical version of Christmas that's being practiced. The very idea of "secularism" is incomprehensible outside of Christianity (e.g., in Islam there is only Islam and the world of the infidels to be conquered and brought under the rule of Allah; the mosque is not an institution like the Church, just a building for prayer and thus no distinction, much less separation, between Church and State is thinkable). [0] https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/refuting-the-pagan-roots-of-christmas-claim https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/refuting-th... [1] You can give this ultimate justification in "logos spermatikos".
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > The fact that you incorrectly think that the "vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian" proves my point. No, it means that I confused the terms "majority" and "plurality". If 75% of the world were Christian, it wouldn't make "being human" a Christian institution.
  - sswezey 5y ago
    Christians are a plurality of the world population but far from a majority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      My mistake, but would it change the calculus if they were a strict majority?
- solidasparagus 5y ago
  Christmas is a very secular holiday. There is still mass, but in American culture the religious aspect of Christmas is minuscule in comparison to the secular and consumerism aspects. "Most of the songs are very religious" is just not true for most mainstream Americans. For most Americans Christmas is about family, Santa (Coke's version), Reindeers, Elves, Trees, and Gifts. And then local or family traditions which may include mass, but for most, it does not. If you'd like some stats - 90% of Americans celebrate Christmas. Fewer than half of Americans consider Christmas primarily a religious holiday. Among younger generations that is much lower (30% of Millennials consider it a primarily religious holiday). A majority of Americans say that Christmas is less of a religious holiday than it was in the past. Only about half of Americans will go to church on Christmas (compared to 82% that will spend time with family).[1] https://www.pewforum.org/2017/12/12/americans-say-religious-aspects-of-christmas-are-declining-in-public-life/ https://www.pewforum.org/2017/12/12/americans-say-religious-...
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    > If you'd like some stats - 90% of Americans celebrate Christmas. Fewer than half of Americans consider Christmas primarily a religious holiday. Maybe we're looking at different stats. I'm looking at the ones you linked from Pew, which show that 61% of Americans who celebrate Xmas consider it to be Christian, down from 64% in 2014. That's supposed to convince me that it is a secular holiday?
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      That seems like strong evidence that there is a “secular Christmas” that is distinct from “Christian Christmas”. Certainly it suffices to disprove the original claim that “celebrating Christmas identifies someone as Christian”.
  - DerekL 5y ago
    > Santa (Coke's version) “The image of Santa Claus as a jolly large man in a red-and-white suit was the standard long before Coca-Cola co-opted it for their advertising.” https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-claus-that-refreshes/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-claus-that-refreshes/
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bobthechef 5y ago
  > I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life People are like fish, they often don't know what water is. They don't realize that their views are usually defections (of defections of...) from Christianity and therefore essentially Christian heresies. In similar fashion, Christmas is first and foremost a religious holiday. The secular version is neuters and changes the original to better conform with secular expectations while trading on the energy and raison d'etre of the original in some weird way. If you think about it, the secular version drained of the original religious content is ridiculously stupid, like all those Soviet attempts to create substitutes for the originals. Call it an idol that will one day fade because Christmas is not very sustainable when cut from its life giving root for very long.
hermitdev 5y ago
> Most Christmas movies don't even mention Christ. Like "Die Hard" ;).

whimsicalism 5y ago

> it has long since become just a western culture tradition with no particular religious significance for a lot of people I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life, and the vast majority of people who practice xmas are Christian, even if they are not weekly church attendees. I was raised in an atheist household, we definitely viewed Christmas as a religious thing. Most of the songs are very religious, people go to mass, etc.

throwaway894345 5y ago
> I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life, One is not a Christian because Christianity influenced their culture. > and the vast majority of people who practice xmas are Christian The vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian. Does that make "humanity" a Christian institution?
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > The vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian. Does that make "humanity" a Christian institution? The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. The fact that you incorrectly think that the "vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian" proves my point.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    > The point is that Christianity has become so normalized to you that you don't recognize Christian celebration as religious. So? Doesn't that just serve to lessen its overall religiousness? I mean, Christmas's traditions are themselves derived from pagan solstice celebrations. Wouldn't that make it a pagan institution by your reasoning? Much like how Christians adopted pre-existing traditions and slapped a Jesus-shaped label on them, people are now slapping a secularity (or, I would argue, consumerist) label on to Christmas traditions.
    - bobthechef 5y ago
      > Christmas's traditions are themselves derived from pagan solstice celebrations Well... [0] > Wouldn't that make it a pagan institution by your reasoning? Even when, say, a previously pagan practice is incorporated into Christianity, it is reinterpreted and given a new meaning, though probably in some way related to the original _by analogy_. This could be done to help the new converts better relate to the new faith and to preserve as much of the good in the previous culture as possible (in general, Catholicism gladly takes in whatever good and reconcilable there is in any culture[1]). In agreement with what you say, this does not make Christianity pagan. Whether this is the same as the secularizing or commercializing or "consumerizing" of Christmas, I don't know. Maybe you could argue that this lumpenreligions are doing something analogous to what I just described, but this seems like a flaky comparison. Besides, secularism is a Christian heresy, so it's more like a heretical version of Christmas that's being practiced. The very idea of "secularism" is incomprehensible outside of Christianity (e.g., in Islam there is only Islam and the world of the infidels to be conquered and brought under the rule of Allah; the mosque is not an institution like the Church, just a building for prayer and thus no distinction, much less separation, between Church and State is thinkable). [0] https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/refuting-the-pagan-roots-of-christmas-claim https://www.catholic.com/magazine/online-edition/refuting-th... [1] You can give this ultimate justification in "logos spermatikos".
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > The fact that you incorrectly think that the "vast majority of people on the planet are also Christian" proves my point. No, it means that I confused the terms "majority" and "plurality". If 75% of the world were Christian, it wouldn't make "being human" a Christian institution.
- sswezey 5y ago
  Christians are a plurality of the world population but far from a majority. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religious_populations
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    My mistake, but would it change the calculus if they were a strict majority?
solidasparagus 5y ago
Christmas is a very secular holiday. There is still mass, but in American culture the religious aspect of Christmas is minuscule in comparison to the secular and consumerism aspects. "Most of the songs are very religious" is just not true for most mainstream Americans. For most Americans Christmas is about family, Santa (Coke's version), Reindeers, Elves, Trees, and Gifts. And then local or family traditions which may include mass, but for most, it does not. If you'd like some stats - 90% of Americans celebrate Christmas. Fewer than half of Americans consider Christmas primarily a religious holiday. Among younger generations that is much lower (30% of Millennials consider it a primarily religious holiday). A majority of Americans say that Christmas is less of a religious holiday than it was in the past. Only about half of Americans will go to church on Christmas (compared to 82% that will spend time with family).[1] https://www.pewforum.org/2017/12/12/americans-say-religious-aspects-of-christmas-are-declining-in-public-life/ https://www.pewforum.org/2017/12/12/americans-say-religious-...
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  > If you'd like some stats - 90% of Americans celebrate Christmas. Fewer than half of Americans consider Christmas primarily a religious holiday. Maybe we're looking at different stats. I'm looking at the ones you linked from Pew, which show that 61% of Americans who celebrate Xmas consider it to be Christian, down from 64% in 2014. That's supposed to convince me that it is a secular holiday?
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    That seems like strong evidence that there is a “secular Christmas” that is distinct from “Christian Christmas”. Certainly it suffices to disprove the original claim that “celebrating Christmas identifies someone as Christian”.
- DerekL 5y ago
  > Santa (Coke's version) “The image of Santa Claus as a jolly large man in a red-and-white suit was the standard long before Coca-Cola co-opted it for their advertising.” https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-claus-that-refreshes/ https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/the-claus-that-refreshes/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bobthechef 5y ago
> I think that people have a tendency to underestimate the degree of Christian influence on their way of life People are like fish, they often don't know what water is. They don't realize that their views are usually defections (of defections of...) from Christianity and therefore essentially Christian heresies. In similar fashion, Christmas is first and foremost a religious holiday. The secular version is neuters and changes the original to better conform with secular expectations while trading on the energy and raison d'etre of the original in some weird way. If you think about it, the secular version drained of the original religious content is ridiculously stupid, like all those Soviet attempts to create substitutes for the originals. Call it an idol that will one day fade because Christmas is not very sustainable when cut from its life giving root for very long.

hermitdev 5y ago

> Most Christmas movies don't even mention Christ. Like "Die Hard" ;).