6 ms·

I grew up going to a school maybe 20% practicing Christian. Everyone celebrated christmas, got and gave gifts, had family dinners around then, etc.

by cm2012 5y ago

renewiltord 5y ago
Yeah, dude, that’s what it means to have a defacto state religion: it becomes the default thing. A classic characteristic of state religions is that even those who do not believe will institutionally practise. So, for instance, even Buddhists in Jordan must not eat in public during Ramadan. Considering everything I was told about America, I was surprised to see that it is a Christian nation (I expected it to not be because of nominal separation of church and state). Instead, many laws are based on Christianity, leaders invoke the Christian god for justification for actions, and the state has official holidays for Christian events. Modeling America as a Christian nation led to a more accurate prediction of reality. This has led to less surprise on my part than most to see that local governments were amenable to bending to Christianity a lot more than others. SF has recently made specific parking laws for churches that close the streets. No such policy exists for synagogues, in comparison. Some were surprised. But I wasn’t. I expect governments at all levels in America to act to privilege Christianity. After all, in action, America is a Christian nation. In practice, it is indistinguishable from the UK which has a de-jure (and de-facto) state religion.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > the state has official holidays for Christian events. If that alarms you, definitely do not go to Europe! That America has some unimportant vestiges of Christianity doesn't make it "a Christian nation" for any useful purposes. Yes, Trump did a bit of pandering to Christians which fooled precisely no one, but in any matter of substance America is resolvedly secular. If you want an accurate and useful model, think of secularism as the religion of the elite minority and the law of the land while Christianity is simply the most popular plebeian religion. Yes, in rare occasions members of the elite need support from the lower classes and will pay some vapid lip service to Christianity (consider Trump's comical appeal to Christians: "the Bible is the best book ever, probably even better than the Art of The Deal"), but beyond that secularism is absolutely the law of the land legally and culturally.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    I lived in Europe in de-jure religious nations. The fact that you find these comparable is exactly my point. For other readers, you can model America as parent comment or you can model America as I have described it. I think you will get more accurate predictions from my model but if you don’t believe that, ask other outsiders who have moved to America (and made it their home, as I have). Or come here yourself. Unfortunately, American identity is tied up in these things. The so-called separation of church and state is held up on as much of a pedestal as “freedom” with predictable effects: evidence contra these principles is ignored or considered a threat. But come here and see for yourself.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > I lived in Europe in de-jure religious nations. The fact that you find these comparable is exactly my point. You're extrapolating an awful lot from a joke, but in any case if Europe fails your test for secularism then what countries are more secular? China? > The so-called separation of church and state is held up on as much of a pedestal as “freedom” with predictable effects: evidence contra these principles is ignored or considered a threat. The principle of separation of church and state is the foundation for American secularism. It's strange to me that you're appealing to it as evidence that America is particularly religious. Do you reserve "secularism" only for polities that forbid religious practice?
      - jagrsw 5y ago
        > Do you reserve "secularism" only for polities that forbid > religious practice? Having at least o couple of irreligious people in the legislative would be a good start :) https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2018/12/PF_12.31.18_faith-00.png https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2018/12/...
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    Trump is far from the only politician pandering to religious (especially Christian) interests, nor is he very representative. If Christianity wasn't a major force in America there would be no controversy over Roe vs Wade (which everyone expects to be overridden soon, thanks to Christian activism) nor over gay marriage.
- JAlexoid 5y ago
  > Buddhists in Jordan must not eat in public during Ramadan That is very different! Buddhists in Jordan a legally barred from doing so, whereas there's no law demanding that you actually celebrate Christmas.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    There is a law that Federal government workers must not work during Christmas, however. You are legally barred from having employees who report in to you come in on Christmas. If you’re a Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist you will be given Christmas to celebrate. Come on, this is blatantly non-separation-of-church-and-state. It’s not anything that upsets me but observationally it is so obvious. M
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      But this is a vestige, and presumably one that would go away if challenged in court. It’s not strong proof that America is a Christian nation (de jure or de facto) or any such thing.
- hindsightbias 5y ago
  > SF has recently made specific parking laws for churches Context matters. This is not a general xtian supremacy thing. It is a unique historical thing with SF AA Baptist churches whose populations were gentrified out of their neighborhoods. Their churches remained and they commute from all over the Bay Area to attend Sunday mass. Cops and neighborhoods accomodated this practice, but the latest generation of gentrifiers whined and complained as they are wont to do so the Supervisors got involved.
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    To be clear, I do not live in that neighbourhood and I don't really mind the America-as-moderate-theocracy system in place. You won't see me whining about the Christian median parking. I have a motorcycle. SF's traffic doesn't bother me and the numerous curb cuts advantage me (cars can't park, but I can). However, the fact that this stuff happens repeatedly for Christian institutions and rarely (almost never, in fact) for others is not something that escapes me. The state does privilege Christianity. That makes sense since America is a Christian nation.
    - rkk3 5y ago
      > However, the fact that this stuff happens repeatedly for Christian institutions and rarely (almost never, in fact) for others is not something that escapes me. Probably just because there are a lot of Christian institutions.
      - renewiltord 5y ago
        This is transparently not the case when exceptions are made for a Christian institution but not a Jewish one as frequently occurred during COVID-19 restrictions.
        rkk3 5y ago
        I'm not familiar with this, care to cite?
        5y ago
whimsicalism 5y ago
If by practicing, you mean "going to church weekly" then sure, but that is not the necessary condition for christmas to be a religious thing. It is extremely common in religions to have a large majority of people only doing the most visible festivals, not the daily/weekly things, that doesn't mean that the festivals are no longer religious.
- cm2012 5y ago
  Probably 70% of the student body was hindu, muslim, or jewish. But they still participated as an american cultural thing, they just didn't do anything church related with it.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Interesting. Where exactly was this? I grew up in a major Jewish population center in the United States, most jews did not celebrate christmas outside of the ceremonial going out for chinese food. Muslim students also did not celebrate xmas. This is an urban center on the east coast.
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      > ceremonial going out for chinese food Wait, what, this is a thing? I'd never heard of that. Like, only the Jews would do it? Or more generally it's common for everyone to go out for Chinese food on Christmas? That has to be regional, if it's true. Kinda funny either way.
      - whimsicalism 5y ago
        Oh yes, it is definitely a thing - and really only a jewish thing that I know of. I grew up in the mid-atlantic, but it is definitely also a thing in NYC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_American_Chinese_restaurant_patronage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_American_Chinese_restau...
        5y ago

I grew up going to a school maybe 20% practicing Christian. Everyone celebrated christmas, got and gave gifts, had family dinners around then, etc.

by cm2012 5y ago

I grew up going to a school maybe 20% practicing Christian. Everyone celebrated christmas, got and gave gifts, had family dinners around then, etc.

renewiltord 5y ago

Yeah, dude, that’s what it means to have a defacto state religion: it becomes the default thing. A classic characteristic of state religions is that even those who do not believe will institutionally practise. So, for instance, even Buddhists in Jordan must not eat in public during Ramadan. Considering everything I was told about America, I was surprised to see that it is a Christian nation (I expected it to not be because of nominal separation of church and state). Instead, many laws are based on Christianity, leaders invoke the Christian god for justification for actions, and the state has official holidays for Christian events. Modeling America as a Christian nation led to a more accurate prediction of reality. This has led to less surprise on my part than most to see that local governments were amenable to bending to Christianity a lot more than others. SF has recently made specific parking laws for churches that close the streets. No such policy exists for synagogues, in comparison. Some were surprised. But I wasn’t. I expect governments at all levels in America to act to privilege Christianity. After all, in action, America is a Christian nation. In practice, it is indistinguishable from the UK which has a de-jure (and de-facto) state religion.

throwaway894345 5y ago
> the state has official holidays for Christian events. If that alarms you, definitely do not go to Europe! That America has some unimportant vestiges of Christianity doesn't make it "a Christian nation" for any useful purposes. Yes, Trump did a bit of pandering to Christians which fooled precisely no one, but in any matter of substance America is resolvedly secular. If you want an accurate and useful model, think of secularism as the religion of the elite minority and the law of the land while Christianity is simply the most popular plebeian religion. Yes, in rare occasions members of the elite need support from the lower classes and will pay some vapid lip service to Christianity (consider Trump's comical appeal to Christians: "the Bible is the best book ever, probably even better than the Art of The Deal"), but beyond that secularism is absolutely the law of the land legally and culturally.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  I lived in Europe in de-jure religious nations. The fact that you find these comparable is exactly my point. For other readers, you can model America as parent comment or you can model America as I have described it. I think you will get more accurate predictions from my model but if you don’t believe that, ask other outsiders who have moved to America (and made it their home, as I have). Or come here yourself. Unfortunately, American identity is tied up in these things. The so-called separation of church and state is held up on as much of a pedestal as “freedom” with predictable effects: evidence contra these principles is ignored or considered a threat. But come here and see for yourself.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > I lived in Europe in de-jure religious nations. The fact that you find these comparable is exactly my point. You're extrapolating an awful lot from a joke, but in any case if Europe fails your test for secularism then what countries are more secular? China? > The so-called separation of church and state is held up on as much of a pedestal as “freedom” with predictable effects: evidence contra these principles is ignored or considered a threat. The principle of separation of church and state is the foundation for American secularism. It's strange to me that you're appealing to it as evidence that America is particularly religious. Do you reserve "secularism" only for polities that forbid religious practice?
    - jagrsw 5y ago
      > Do you reserve "secularism" only for polities that forbid > religious practice? Having at least o couple of irreligious people in the legislative would be a good start :) https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2018/12/PF_12.31.18_faith-00.png https://www.pewforum.org/wp-content/uploads/sites/7/2018/12/...
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  Trump is far from the only politician pandering to religious (especially Christian) interests, nor is he very representative. If Christianity wasn't a major force in America there would be no controversy over Roe vs Wade (which everyone expects to be overridden soon, thanks to Christian activism) nor over gay marriage.
JAlexoid 5y ago
> Buddhists in Jordan must not eat in public during Ramadan That is very different! Buddhists in Jordan a legally barred from doing so, whereas there's no law demanding that you actually celebrate Christmas.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  There is a law that Federal government workers must not work during Christmas, however. You are legally barred from having employees who report in to you come in on Christmas. If you’re a Muslim, Hindu, or Buddhist you will be given Christmas to celebrate. Come on, this is blatantly non-separation-of-church-and-state. It’s not anything that upsets me but observationally it is so obvious. M
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    But this is a vestige, and presumably one that would go away if challenged in court. It’s not strong proof that America is a Christian nation (de jure or de facto) or any such thing.
hindsightbias 5y ago
> SF has recently made specific parking laws for churches Context matters. This is not a general xtian supremacy thing. It is a unique historical thing with SF AA Baptist churches whose populations were gentrified out of their neighborhoods. Their churches remained and they commute from all over the Bay Area to attend Sunday mass. Cops and neighborhoods accomodated this practice, but the latest generation of gentrifiers whined and complained as they are wont to do so the Supervisors got involved.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  To be clear, I do not live in that neighbourhood and I don't really mind the America-as-moderate-theocracy system in place. You won't see me whining about the Christian median parking. I have a motorcycle. SF's traffic doesn't bother me and the numerous curb cuts advantage me (cars can't park, but I can). However, the fact that this stuff happens repeatedly for Christian institutions and rarely (almost never, in fact) for others is not something that escapes me. The state does privilege Christianity. That makes sense since America is a Christian nation.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    > However, the fact that this stuff happens repeatedly for Christian institutions and rarely (almost never, in fact) for others is not something that escapes me. Probably just because there are a lot of Christian institutions.
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      This is transparently not the case when exceptions are made for a Christian institution but not a Jewish one as frequently occurred during COVID-19 restrictions.
      - rkk3 5y ago
        I'm not familiar with this, care to cite?
      - 5y ago

whimsicalism 5y ago

If by practicing, you mean "going to church weekly" then sure, but that is not the necessary condition for christmas to be a religious thing. It is extremely common in religions to have a large majority of people only doing the most visible festivals, not the daily/weekly things, that doesn't mean that the festivals are no longer religious.

cm2012 5y ago
Probably 70% of the student body was hindu, muslim, or jewish. But they still participated as an american cultural thing, they just didn't do anything church related with it.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Interesting. Where exactly was this? I grew up in a major Jewish population center in the United States, most jews did not celebrate christmas outside of the ceremonial going out for chinese food. Muslim students also did not celebrate xmas. This is an urban center on the east coast.
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    > ceremonial going out for chinese food Wait, what, this is a thing? I'd never heard of that. Like, only the Jews would do it? Or more generally it's common for everyone to go out for Chinese food on Christmas? That has to be regional, if it's true. Kinda funny either way.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      Oh yes, it is definitely a thing - and really only a jewish thing that I know of. I grew up in the mid-atlantic, but it is definitely also a thing in NYC. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_American_Chinese_restaurant_patronage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_American_Chinese_restau...
      - 5y ago