4 ms·

Sigh- voted against Trump twice. The fact of the matter is the Ratcliffe Letter [0] shows that President Obama was given an briefing well before the Steele Dos

by mrkstu 5y ago

Sigh- voted against Trump twice. The fact of the matter is the Ratcliffe Letter [0] shows that President Obama was given an briefing well before the Steele Dossier was leaked to the media that the Russians' had picked up intelligence that exactly that kind of fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. I really don't believe in a coincidence that big and unless Steele was simultaneously a Russian and Clinton asset, it doesn't matter, and that would be even a bigger issue that should have been the story. Can't have it both ways. I'm perfectly happy to not have Mr. Trump around any more, but I'd prefer the media not carry water for their preferred candidates and let me make those determinations [0]: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/09-29-20_Letter%20to%20Sen.%20Graham_Declassification%20of%20FBI's%20Crossfire%20Hurricane%20Investigations_20-00912_U_SIGNED-FINAL.pdf https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/09-29-20_Lett...

myko 5y ago
> fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. Again, this never happened. First of all, the Steele Dossier was raw intelligence, not meant to be taken as fact. It was paid for initially by Republicans, not HRC's campaign, so pinning it on her is disingenuous. Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks and some that should have (Jr's meeting that trump helped him lie about). Your own link (and common sense) disputes your claim that it was proven HRC's campaign did this: > The IC does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication. It was Russian disinformation creating and spreading the lie that you are boldly posting on here.
- TMWNN 5y ago
  >Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks Name one Trump person who was arrested (let alone convicted) for something actually, directly related to Russiagate. Papadopoulos: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. Manafort and Gates: Indicted for not registering as foreign agents of Ukraine (which, you might have noticed, is sort of an enemy of Russia right now) Flynn: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. (Forced by lack of legal fees into pleading guilty, which later caused problems when the government tried to drop charges.) Pinedo (Who? Exactly): Indicted for identity fraud. van der Zwaan: Indicted for making false statements (and not an American, anyway). Cohen: Indicted for making false statements. Stone: Indicted for making false statements and witness tampering. Then we have people like Carter Page, whose name was raked over the coals for years because a FBI lawyer intentionally altered evidence (<https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/politics/fbi-ig-report-russia-investigation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/politics/fbi-ig-report...>) showing that far from being a Russian asset, Page had for years briefed the CIA every time he met with suspicious Russians. (Got to love how the Times describes said altering evidence as a "serious error".) You want an actual Russiagate-related indictment and guilty plea? Kevin Clinesmith, said FBI lawyer, is your man.
  - myko 5y ago
    - Roger Stone (he lied about his work with Guccifier 2.0, and wikileaks which was working as an arm of the Russian government) - Paul Manafort (his work in Ukraine was done on behalf of Russia - I mean seriously read about the shit he did: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/05/ex-trump-aide-paul-manafort-approved-black-ops-to-help-ukraine-president https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/05/ex-trump-aid... - also linked with wikileaks, but not in the US election context afaik). And where did the former leader of Ukraine, Yanukovych, who Manafort propped up flee to when the shit he and Manafort did together came out? - We know Jr attempted to get the Russian governments help and had a meeting in trump tower about it, that his dad helped him lie about (obstructing justice in the process) Done
buerkle 5y ago
Ratcliffe was a big Trump supporter, not sure how much anything he said can be trusted. The letteris lacking in detail and hard proof. It even acknowledges "The IC does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication."
- myko 5y ago
  Right, all the letter says is what anyone who is talking about the Steele Dossier should already know - Russia habitually leaks disinformation, and will mix the lies with fact to confuse folks. Steele said as much himself which the FBI commented on in their review of the dossier (parts of the report he got from Russian contacts he wasn't sure were accurate, but since it was raw intelligence he reported it). Basically the letter says: "somebody heard from some Russian source that is not trusted that HRC was behind linking trump to Russia, but since that source is not trustworthy and there's no evidence we can't determine that to be a fact." Treating that tenuous link as a fact is doing exactly what OP is claiming the media did with the Steele Dossier (which generally they did not, they reported on its existence not its accuracy - and the media I consumed was careful about that distinction).
NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
>Sigh- voted against Trump twice. You cannot vote "against" someone in any election except a recall. Who you voted for is who you voted for. Simple example: When I voted for Howie Hawkins in 2020, who was my vote "against"?
- myko 5y ago
  I suppose you could say your vote was against "everyone else", but that seems like a pretty useless statement
- mrkstu 5y ago
  I don't know how to characterize my votes any other way. Voted Libertarian this election and McMullin last. Both were ways to keep my vote away from Trump, though I had historically voted near straight party Republican most years (never actually straight ticket, just close.) Going forward no party gets my allegiance and I'll vote per person/issue, but Trump was the turning point. When you feel a civic duty to vote, but none of the candidates are really acceptable, I'll vote 'against' the worst by picking the least objectionable, until the whole country gets the Nevada option of 'none of the above.'
  - NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
    >When you feel a civic duty to vote, but none of the candidates are really acceptable, I'll vote 'against' the worst by picking the least objectionable, until the whole country gets the Nevada option of 'none of the above.' ...you cannot vote 'against' anyone in an election. In 2020, I think I wrote myself in for about 8 different positions in my locale, because I won't vote for anyone I don't support. Sure I may not have won that time around, but I didn't assist anyone I didn't actively want to win. Guilt free voting.

by mrkstu 5y ago

myko 5y ago

> fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. Again, this never happened. First of all, the Steele Dossier was raw intelligence, not meant to be taken as fact. It was paid for initially by Republicans, not HRC's campaign, so pinning it on her is disingenuous. Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks and some that should have (Jr's meeting that trump helped him lie about). Your own link (and common sense) disputes your claim that it was proven HRC's campaign did this: > The IC does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication. It was Russian disinformation creating and spreading the lie that you are boldly posting on here.

TMWNN 5y ago
>Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks Name one Trump person who was arrested (let alone convicted) for something actually, directly related to Russiagate. Papadopoulos: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. Manafort and Gates: Indicted for not registering as foreign agents of Ukraine (which, you might have noticed, is sort of an enemy of Russia right now) Flynn: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. (Forced by lack of legal fees into pleading guilty, which later caused problems when the government tried to drop charges.) Pinedo (Who? Exactly): Indicted for identity fraud. van der Zwaan: Indicted for making false statements (and not an American, anyway). Cohen: Indicted for making false statements. Stone: Indicted for making false statements and witness tampering. Then we have people like Carter Page, whose name was raked over the coals for years because a FBI lawyer intentionally altered evidence (<https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/politics/fbi-ig-report-russia-investigation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/politics/fbi-ig-report...>) showing that far from being a Russian asset, Page had for years briefed the CIA every time he met with suspicious Russians. (Got to love how the Times describes said altering evidence as a "serious error".) You want an actual Russiagate-related indictment and guilty plea? Kevin Clinesmith, said FBI lawyer, is your man.
- myko 5y ago
  - Roger Stone (he lied about his work with Guccifier 2.0, and wikileaks which was working as an arm of the Russian government) - Paul Manafort (his work in Ukraine was done on behalf of Russia - I mean seriously read about the shit he did: https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/05/ex-trump-aide-paul-manafort-approved-black-ops-to-help-ukraine-president https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/apr/05/ex-trump-aid... - also linked with wikileaks, but not in the US election context afaik). And where did the former leader of Ukraine, Yanukovych, who Manafort propped up flee to when the shit he and Manafort did together came out? - We know Jr attempted to get the Russian governments help and had a meeting in trump tower about it, that his dad helped him lie about (obstructing justice in the process) Done

buerkle 5y ago

Ratcliffe was a big Trump supporter, not sure how much anything he said can be trusted. The letteris lacking in detail and hard proof. It even acknowledges "The IC does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication."

myko 5y ago
Right, all the letter says is what anyone who is talking about the Steele Dossier should already know - Russia habitually leaks disinformation, and will mix the lies with fact to confuse folks. Steele said as much himself which the FBI commented on in their review of the dossier (parts of the report he got from Russian contacts he wasn't sure were accurate, but since it was raw intelligence he reported it). Basically the letter says: "somebody heard from some Russian source that is not trusted that HRC was behind linking trump to Russia, but since that source is not trustworthy and there's no evidence we can't determine that to be a fact." Treating that tenuous link as a fact is doing exactly what OP is claiming the media did with the Steele Dossier (which generally they did not, they reported on its existence not its accuracy - and the media I consumed was careful about that distinction).

NaturalPhallacy 5y ago

>Sigh- voted against Trump twice. You cannot vote "against" someone in any election except a recall. Who you voted for is who you voted for. Simple example: When I voted for Howie Hawkins in 2020, who was my vote "against"?

myko 5y ago
I suppose you could say your vote was against "everyone else", but that seems like a pretty useless statement
mrkstu 5y ago
I don't know how to characterize my votes any other way. Voted Libertarian this election and McMullin last. Both were ways to keep my vote away from Trump, though I had historically voted near straight party Republican most years (never actually straight ticket, just close.) Going forward no party gets my allegiance and I'll vote per person/issue, but Trump was the turning point. When you feel a civic duty to vote, but none of the candidates are really acceptable, I'll vote 'against' the worst by picking the least objectionable, until the whole country gets the Nevada option of 'none of the above.'
- NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
  >When you feel a civic duty to vote, but none of the candidates are really acceptable, I'll vote 'against' the worst by picking the least objectionable, until the whole country gets the Nevada option of 'none of the above.' ...you cannot vote 'against' anyone in an election. In 2020, I think I wrote myself in for about 8 different positions in my locale, because I won't vote for anyone I don't support. Sure I may not have won that time around, but I didn't assist anyone I didn't actively want to win. Guilt free voting.