5 ms·

My main issue with American news and commentary is the complete lack of skepticism of those on 'their side' of an issue. On the right, when Trump hadn't yet go

by mrkstu 5y ago

My main issue with American news and commentary is the complete lack of skepticism of those on 'their side' of an issue. On the right, when Trump hadn't yet gotten control of the party, there was some persistent reaction against him from established conservative media. Once he got control, it was almost complete silence. On the left, evidence of how much of the investigation into Russian collusion with Trump's election team was completely made up and water carrying by the media of Clinton's team's planted story has never been owned by the participants. There are near infinite examples of this on both sides. I just want media that is skeptical of those in power and those seeking power. All of them, not those on another team.

myko 5y ago
> On the left, evidence of how much of the investigation into Russian collusion with Trump's election team was completely made up and water carrying by the media of Clinton's team's planted story has never been owned by the participants. This is bizarre. No such thing happened.
- Impassionata 5y ago
  Fascists don't care about truth. It's that simple. And people are that easy to mislead. At least for a while.
  - mrkstu 5y ago
    Sigh- voted against Trump twice. The fact of the matter is the Ratcliffe Letter [0] shows that President Obama was given an briefing well before the Steele Dossier was leaked to the media that the Russians' had picked up intelligence that exactly that kind of fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. I really don't believe in a coincidence that big and unless Steele was simultaneously a Russian and Clinton asset, it doesn't matter, and that would be even a bigger issue that should have been the story. Can't have it both ways. I'm perfectly happy to not have Mr. Trump around any more, but I'd prefer the media not carry water for their preferred candidates and let me make those determinations [0]: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/09-29-20_Letter%20to%20Sen.%20Graham_Declassification%20of%20FBI's%20Crossfire%20Hurricane%20Investigations_20-00912_U_SIGNED-FINAL.pdf https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/09-29-20_Lett...
    - myko 5y ago
      > fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. Again, this never happened. First of all, the Steele Dossier was raw intelligence, not meant to be taken as fact. It was paid for initially by Republicans, not HRC's campaign, so pinning it on her is disingenuous. Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks and some that should have (Jr's meeting that trump helped him lie about). Your own link (and common sense) disputes your claim that it was proven HRC's campaign did this: > The IC does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication. It was Russian disinformation creating and spreading the lie that you are boldly posting on here.
      - TMWNN 5y ago
        >Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks Name one Trump person who was arrested (let alone convicted) for something actually, directly related to Russiagate. Papadopoulos: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. Manafort and Gates: Indicted for not registering as foreign agents of Ukraine (which, you might have noticed, is sort of an enemy of Russia right now) Flynn: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. (Forced by lack of legal fees into pleading guilty, which later caused problems when the government tried to drop charges.) Pinedo (Who? Exactly): Indicted for identity fraud. van der Zwaan: Indicted for making false statements (and not an American, anyway). Cohen: Indicted for making false statements. Stone: Indicted for making false statements and witness tampering. Then we have people like Carter Page, whose name was raked over the coals for years because a FBI lawyer intentionally altered evidence (<https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/politics/fbi-ig-report-russia-investigation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/politics/fbi-ig-report...>) showing that far from being a Russian asset, Page had for years briefed the CIA every time he met with suspicious Russians. (Got to love how the Times describes said altering evidence as a "serious error".) You want an actual Russiagate-related indictment and guilty plea? Kevin Clinesmith, said FBI lawyer, is your man.
        myko 5y ago
- passivate 5y ago
  https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-million https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-mill... https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/03/dear-cnn-what-parts-steele-dossier-were-corroborated/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/03/dear-cnn-...
  - myko 5y ago
    Those links don't disprove anything I've said on this subject in this thread.
    - passivate 5y ago
      I disagree. They do for me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
      - myko 5y ago
        Thankfully the facts are on my side. Have a nice day yourself. If you wish to defend your position, please explain Don Jr's meeting where he's looking for help from the Russian government, trump's obstruction regarding that meeting, Manafort's working in Ukraine on behalf of Putin, and Roger Stone's involvement with guccifier 2.0/wikileaks.
        mythrwy 5y ago
        You are really doubling down on that? The facts are not on your side but the reverse. It's amazing to see in real time to be honest.
        myko 5y ago
        Yes I am doubling down on the facts. For reference, you posted two links with no explanation as to how they supposably refute my points and have refused to backup your claim that HRC created the Russia problem for trump. Please explain: - Don Jr's meeting where he's looking for help from the Russian government - trump's obstruction regarding that meeting - Manafort's shady dealings in Ukraine on behalf of Putin - Roger Stone's involvement with guccifier 2.0/wikileaks while working directly with trump - Why you think HRC created a fake story about Russia given the facts above and the fact that even the Steele Dossier (only part of trump's Russia problem) wasn't initiated by HRC or her campaign The fact that you cannot defend these actions show the weakness of your position.

by mrkstu 5y ago

myko 5y ago

> On the left, evidence of how much of the investigation into Russian collusion with Trump's election team was completely made up and water carrying by the media of Clinton's team's planted story has never been owned by the participants. This is bizarre. No such thing happened.

Impassionata 5y ago
Fascists don't care about truth. It's that simple. And people are that easy to mislead. At least for a while.
- mrkstu 5y ago
  Sigh- voted against Trump twice. The fact of the matter is the Ratcliffe Letter [0] shows that President Obama was given an briefing well before the Steele Dossier was leaked to the media that the Russians' had picked up intelligence that exactly that kind of fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. I really don't believe in a coincidence that big and unless Steele was simultaneously a Russian and Clinton asset, it doesn't matter, and that would be even a bigger issue that should have been the story. Can't have it both ways. I'm perfectly happy to not have Mr. Trump around any more, but I'd prefer the media not carry water for their preferred candidates and let me make those determinations [0]: https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/09-29-20_Letter%20to%20Sen.%20Graham_Declassification%20of%20FBI's%20Crossfire%20Hurricane%20Investigations_20-00912_U_SIGNED-FINAL.pdf https://www.judiciary.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/09-29-20_Lett...
  - myko 5y ago
    > fake evidence would be planted by the Clinton campaign. Again, this never happened. First of all, the Steele Dossier was raw intelligence, not meant to be taken as fact. It was paid for initially by Republicans, not HRC's campaign, so pinning it on her is disingenuous. Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks and some that should have (Jr's meeting that trump helped him lie about). Your own link (and common sense) disputes your claim that it was proven HRC's campaign did this: > The IC does not know the accuracy of this allegation or the extent to which the Russian intelligence analysis may reflect exaggeration or fabrication. It was Russian disinformation creating and spreading the lie that you are boldly posting on here.
    - TMWNN 5y ago
      >Also, there were clear links between the trump campaign and Russia, including some that led to arrests of his folks Name one Trump person who was arrested (let alone convicted) for something actually, directly related to Russiagate. Papadopoulos: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. Manafort and Gates: Indicted for not registering as foreign agents of Ukraine (which, you might have noticed, is sort of an enemy of Russia right now) Flynn: Indicted for making a false statement to FBI. (Forced by lack of legal fees into pleading guilty, which later caused problems when the government tried to drop charges.) Pinedo (Who? Exactly): Indicted for identity fraud. van der Zwaan: Indicted for making false statements (and not an American, anyway). Cohen: Indicted for making false statements. Stone: Indicted for making false statements and witness tampering. Then we have people like Carter Page, whose name was raked over the coals for years because a FBI lawyer intentionally altered evidence (<https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/politics/fbi-ig-report-russia-investigation.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/12/09/us/politics/fbi-ig-report...>) showing that far from being a Russian asset, Page had for years briefed the CIA every time he met with suspicious Russians. (Got to love how the Times describes said altering evidence as a "serious error".) You want an actual Russiagate-related indictment and guilty plea? Kevin Clinesmith, said FBI lawyer, is your man.
      - myko 5y ago
passivate 5y ago
https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-million https://taibbi.substack.com/p/russiagate-is-wmd-times-a-mill... https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/03/dear-cnn-what-parts-steele-dossier-were-corroborated/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/03/dear-cnn-...
- myko 5y ago
  Those links don't disprove anything I've said on this subject in this thread.
  - passivate 5y ago
    I disagree. They do for me, so we'll just have to agree to disagree. Have a nice day.
    - myko 5y ago
      Thankfully the facts are on my side. Have a nice day yourself. If you wish to defend your position, please explain Don Jr's meeting where he's looking for help from the Russian government, trump's obstruction regarding that meeting, Manafort's working in Ukraine on behalf of Putin, and Roger Stone's involvement with guccifier 2.0/wikileaks.
      - mythrwy 5y ago
        You are really doubling down on that? The facts are not on your side but the reverse. It's amazing to see in real time to be honest.
        myko 5y ago
        Yes I am doubling down on the facts. For reference, you posted two links with no explanation as to how they supposably refute my points and have refused to backup your claim that HRC created the Russia problem for trump. Please explain: - Don Jr's meeting where he's looking for help from the Russian government - trump's obstruction regarding that meeting - Manafort's shady dealings in Ukraine on behalf of Putin - Roger Stone's involvement with guccifier 2.0/wikileaks while working directly with trump - Why you think HRC created a fake story about Russia given the facts above and the fact that even the Steele Dossier (only part of trump's Russia problem) wasn't initiated by HRC or her campaign The fact that you cannot defend these actions show the weakness of your position.