5 ms·

"(According to [1], only 1% of Americans are Muslim, and 60+% are Christian--and I would be shocked if 60+% of American film characters are identifiably Christi

"(According to [1], only 1% of Americans are Muslim, and 60+% are Christian--and I would be shocked if 60+% of American film characters are identifiably Christian never mind [how they are portrayed][2])" Yet both Muslims and Christians are in the news a lot, and there's a lot of political discussion about them. It would be refreshing if more mainstream fictional media featured them in realistic, three-dimensional portrayals rather than as faceless stereotypes, wouldn't you agree?

burnished 5y ago
for me, personally, absolutely not. I want thoughtful portrayal of character in media that I consume, but am in no way desiring yet more religious representation.
- XorNot 5y ago
  This seems like an odd take to me. What is the point of film and fiction if not to see and experience things you otherwise cannot or would not? The question I have is what is being preserved by not having a diversity of backgrounds, ethnicities and belief systems in films?
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    The parent seems to be suggesting that he doesn't want the emphasis to be on diversity, but rather on quality of characters. This doesn't imply that the characters have to be homogeneous.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    Having "diverse" characters does not automatically make a movie more interesting. In fact, if you are relying on demographics (religion, race, sexuality) alone to make a character interesting, there is a very good chance the characters are flat, boring, and lazily written.
    - pmoriarty 5y ago
      Of course having diverse characters does not automatically make a movie more interesting. But interesting movies can be made about diverse characters as they can about homogeneous characters. Only depicting homogeneous societies furthers ignorance and demonization of people who are different. Showing more diversity, in interesting, authentic, and deep ways is one an important way we have of striving towards a society where we better understand and value one another, and get along.
      - throwaway894345 5y ago
        > Only depicting homogeneous societies furthers ignorance and demonization of people who are different. I think you're arguing against a straw man. It seems pretty clear that no one is arguing for less diversity, but rather against diversity for its own sake or prioritizing it above all other concerns.
- mensetmanusman 5y ago
  I haven’t seen a realistic Hollywood portrayal of an average American family in the last 20 years because the secular corporate culture is so willfully ignorant. This is argued as being a feature of interesting content though since ‘nothing average is interesting’. It has skewed perception, but whether that matters is up for debate.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    What would a realistic portrayal of an average American family look like to you?
phkahler 5y ago
>> It would be refreshing if more mainstream fictional media featured them in realistic, three-dimensional portrayals rather than as faceless stereotypes Yes and no. First, so much media has fallen down when it comes to character development. Then there's the problem of big companies like Disney that are deliberately secular in their content.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > First, so much media has fallen down when it comes to character development. That's the handy thing about essentialism, you don't need an individual character when you have pre-packaged narratives about their race, gender, etc. Rather than a complex character, we get a canned Black character or a canned White character or a canned Female character or a canned Male character. What do you need to know about a person that you can't infer from their immutable characteristics? (:
  - phkahler 5y ago
    I recently read that the main character in "They Live" had an entire backstory that was never told in the movie. Someone (producer, director, ???) Told Roddy Piper to create a backstory for his character and he did, and he played that part even though it was never shared with anyone. I'd thought about that myself for writing - if you define each character ahead of time and keep their character in mind it will aid writing their parts so they are seamless and self-consistent.
throwaway894345 5y ago
> Yet both Muslims and Christians are in the news a lot, and there's a lot of political discussion about them. I'm not sure what your point is? That Muslims and Christians should be grateful that the news media talks about them a bit more than the entertainment media? To be clear, I'm not arguing that any particular group should have more representation; I'm criticizing the media for its increasingly propagandist angles. > It would be refreshing if more mainstream fictional media featured them in realistic, three-dimensional portrayals rather than as faceless stereotypes, wouldn't you agree? In general, yes, but that doesn't justify misleading or agenda-driven news media. And in any case, every time people try to "fix" the entertainment media, we end up with awful content (e.g., the GhostBusters reboot) and frankly I don't want to sacrifice that much quality for sake of representation. My wife and I were just talking about how many really good pre-2015 films wouldn't be made today because they don't thrust the characters' race, gender, etc into the foreground.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  "I'm not sure what your point is?" My point is that religious people, whether Christian, Muslim, or whatever, have a serious impact on our lives, and it would benefit everyone if we engaged with them as real people rather than fantasy stereotypes. Fictional media can help with this by giving us insight in to what people are really like. My contention is that this is more desirable than merely leaving them as faceless talking points in the news.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    Ok, so are we in agreement? Your original response sounded like you were expressing disagreement.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    IMO it takes serious anthropological commitment to have a non-idiot understanding of a people. I feel this shouldn't be an individual job. Either your entire community has deep, embedded relations with another community or it doesn't. Otherwise it's like asking for better sources to read about Chinese culture, or like visiting China once a year for vacation. You can't read your way into being culturally competent. You might even move your entire family to China, but it may only be your children who truly begin the road to integration. Anyone who is part of an immigrant community will have a story of the trajectory of cultural competency. It is an optimism which must be fulfilled by your next generation. You can, however, follow generic protocols of kindness whilst in ignorance.
WalterBright 5y ago
> It would be refreshing if I'm more interested in them making more of an effort at a good story.

burnished 5y ago

for me, personally, absolutely not. I want thoughtful portrayal of character in media that I consume, but am in no way desiring yet more religious representation.

XorNot 5y ago
This seems like an odd take to me. What is the point of film and fiction if not to see and experience things you otherwise cannot or would not? The question I have is what is being preserved by not having a diversity of backgrounds, ethnicities and belief systems in films?
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  The parent seems to be suggesting that he doesn't want the emphasis to be on diversity, but rather on quality of characters. This doesn't imply that the characters have to be homogeneous.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  Having "diverse" characters does not automatically make a movie more interesting. In fact, if you are relying on demographics (religion, race, sexuality) alone to make a character interesting, there is a very good chance the characters are flat, boring, and lazily written.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    Of course having diverse characters does not automatically make a movie more interesting. But interesting movies can be made about diverse characters as they can about homogeneous characters. Only depicting homogeneous societies furthers ignorance and demonization of people who are different. Showing more diversity, in interesting, authentic, and deep ways is one an important way we have of striving towards a society where we better understand and value one another, and get along.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      > Only depicting homogeneous societies furthers ignorance and demonization of people who are different. I think you're arguing against a straw man. It seems pretty clear that no one is arguing for less diversity, but rather against diversity for its own sake or prioritizing it above all other concerns.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
I haven’t seen a realistic Hollywood portrayal of an average American family in the last 20 years because the secular corporate culture is so willfully ignorant. This is argued as being a feature of interesting content though since ‘nothing average is interesting’. It has skewed perception, but whether that matters is up for debate.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  What would a realistic portrayal of an average American family look like to you?

phkahler 5y ago

>> It would be refreshing if more mainstream fictional media featured them in realistic, three-dimensional portrayals rather than as faceless stereotypes Yes and no. First, so much media has fallen down when it comes to character development. Then there's the problem of big companies like Disney that are deliberately secular in their content.

throwaway894345 5y ago
> First, so much media has fallen down when it comes to character development. That's the handy thing about essentialism, you don't need an individual character when you have pre-packaged narratives about their race, gender, etc. Rather than a complex character, we get a canned Black character or a canned White character or a canned Female character or a canned Male character. What do you need to know about a person that you can't infer from their immutable characteristics? (:
- phkahler 5y ago
  I recently read that the main character in "They Live" had an entire backstory that was never told in the movie. Someone (producer, director, ???) Told Roddy Piper to create a backstory for his character and he did, and he played that part even though it was never shared with anyone. I'd thought about that myself for writing - if you define each character ahead of time and keep their character in mind it will aid writing their parts so they are seamless and self-consistent.

throwaway894345 5y ago

> Yet both Muslims and Christians are in the news a lot, and there's a lot of political discussion about them. I'm not sure what your point is? That Muslims and Christians should be grateful that the news media talks about them a bit more than the entertainment media? To be clear, I'm not arguing that any particular group should have more representation; I'm criticizing the media for its increasingly propagandist angles. > It would be refreshing if more mainstream fictional media featured them in realistic, three-dimensional portrayals rather than as faceless stereotypes, wouldn't you agree? In general, yes, but that doesn't justify misleading or agenda-driven news media. And in any case, every time people try to "fix" the entertainment media, we end up with awful content (e.g., the GhostBusters reboot) and frankly I don't want to sacrifice that much quality for sake of representation. My wife and I were just talking about how many really good pre-2015 films wouldn't be made today because they don't thrust the characters' race, gender, etc into the foreground.

pmoriarty 5y ago
"I'm not sure what your point is?" My point is that religious people, whether Christian, Muslim, or whatever, have a serious impact on our lives, and it would benefit everyone if we engaged with them as real people rather than fantasy stereotypes. Fictional media can help with this by giving us insight in to what people are really like. My contention is that this is more desirable than merely leaving them as faceless talking points in the news.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  Ok, so are we in agreement? Your original response sounded like you were expressing disagreement.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  IMO it takes serious anthropological commitment to have a non-idiot understanding of a people. I feel this shouldn't be an individual job. Either your entire community has deep, embedded relations with another community or it doesn't. Otherwise it's like asking for better sources to read about Chinese culture, or like visiting China once a year for vacation. You can't read your way into being culturally competent. You might even move your entire family to China, but it may only be your children who truly begin the road to integration. Anyone who is part of an immigrant community will have a story of the trajectory of cultural competency. It is an optimism which must be fulfilled by your next generation. You can, however, follow generic protocols of kindness whilst in ignorance.

WalterBright 5y ago

> It would be refreshing if I'm more interested in them making more of an effort at a good story.