5 ms·

Just like you can't compare a gigabyte of cloud storage with 90% uptime to one with 99.9% uptime you can't really compare a kw/h of raw solar/wind to nuclear.

Just like you can't compare a gigabyte of cloud storage with 90% uptime to one with 99.9% uptime you can't really compare a kw/h of raw solar/wind to nuclear. And once you install enough storage to make the 9's comparable, the solar/wind is quite a bit more expensive than the nuclear.

Reason077 5y ago
You're right that a kW of nuclear can't be compared to a kW of solar, because the load factors will be very different. But power stations are contracted/paid on the basis of the energy (ie MWh) they generate. And solar and wind can produce each MWh significantly cheaper than new-build nuclear can.
- JamesBarney 5y ago
  It's true that most energy providers aren't really compensated well enough for uptime ( As seen in Texas this past winter). But that mispricing of current power doesn't solve any of the issues we'll need to solve to migrate to a lower carbon energy infrastructure.
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  > But power stations are contracted/paid on the basis of the energy (ie MWh) they generate. But will they be continue to be paid by the solidified alumunium smelter and the gunged-up paper mill the week after the cloudy weather? That said, in interesting innovation that may deal with dispatch-ratio limitations of renewable energy has become popular here in Africa for domestic lighting. As you know, we have 'moved on' from electricity to candles and bush-fires for reasons relating to what is euphemistically called a skills-shortage. Many of us are now using LED light bulbs with batteries in them. They charge when the power is available (Deo Volente) and offer ~4 hours light. And we get to see the stars now.
bryanlarsen 5y ago
Wrong. Solar + batteries has been built in the Mojave for $40/MWh, about a fifth the cost of nuclear. https://www.energy-storage.news/news/developer-8minute-says-more-than-24gwh-of-batteries-included-in-its-us-sola https://www.energy-storage.news/news/developer-8minute-says-...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- JamesBarney 5y ago
  That just says they built a solar array with batteries for that price. It doesn't say anywhere that the uptime is comparable to traditional energy sources.
- koheripbal 5y ago
  This is not correct. They constructed that with small batteries - not nearly large enough to smooth out to 99.9% uptime levels.
  - bryanlarsen 5y ago
    Nothing has 99.9% uptime, not even nuclear. That's a grid level property, not plant level.
    - koheripbal 5y ago
      I don't think it's useful to disagree about the number of 9s. The point is that nuclear is far more reliable than any other power source. https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/nuclear-power-most-reliable-energy-source-and-its-not-even-close https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/nuclear-power-most-reliab... https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=23112 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=23112
      - bryanlarsen 5y ago
        The relevant metric is not reliability, it's reliability per dollar spent. And in that metric a grid built for 95% mix of renewable 5% natgas peaker with geographic diversity will trounce a nuclear. Building nuclear in 2021 is like buying UltraSPARC in 2021. Sure, it's more reliable than a single PC, but a cluster of PC's is way cheaper and more reliable in aggregate.
        5y ago
Abimelex 5y ago
Arguing uptime is a bit out of scope here, considering that especially in the US rolling blackouts are very common and the reason is basically the net, not the suppliers. On the contrary a decentralized PV grid would probably open opportunities for a lot of micro grids.
- koheripbal 5y ago
  This is an extremely hyperbolic comment, bordering on intentionally dishonest. Rolling blackouts are incredibly abnormal, but would be extremely common with solar/wind based power. A diversified power grid would still be subject to weather - which is common across the entire local grid.
pfdietz 5y ago
> And once you install enough storage to make the 9's comparable, the solar/wind is quite a bit more expensive than the nuclear. This is not at all clear, especially going forward. The key is to shave off the last 10% or so with hydrogen and combined cycle, not batteries. https://model.energy/ https://model.energy/ for actual model results

Reason077 5y ago

You're right that a kW of nuclear can't be compared to a kW of solar, because the load factors will be very different. But power stations are contracted/paid on the basis of the energy (ie MWh) they generate. And solar and wind can produce each MWh significantly cheaper than new-build nuclear can.

JamesBarney 5y ago
It's true that most energy providers aren't really compensated well enough for uptime ( As seen in Texas this past winter). But that mispricing of current power doesn't solve any of the issues we'll need to solve to migrate to a lower carbon energy infrastructure.
throwaway210222 5y ago
> But power stations are contracted/paid on the basis of the energy (ie MWh) they generate. But will they be continue to be paid by the solidified alumunium smelter and the gunged-up paper mill the week after the cloudy weather? That said, in interesting innovation that may deal with dispatch-ratio limitations of renewable energy has become popular here in Africa for domestic lighting. As you know, we have 'moved on' from electricity to candles and bush-fires for reasons relating to what is euphemistically called a skills-shortage. Many of us are now using LED light bulbs with batteries in them. They charge when the power is available (Deo Volente) and offer ~4 hours light. And we get to see the stars now.

bryanlarsen 5y ago

Wrong. Solar + batteries has been built in the Mojave for $40/MWh, about a fifth the cost of nuclear. https://www.energy-storage.news/news/developer-8minute-says-more-than-24gwh-of-batteries-included-in-its-us-sola https://www.energy-storage.news/news/developer-8minute-says-...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
JamesBarney 5y ago
That just says they built a solar array with batteries for that price. It doesn't say anywhere that the uptime is comparable to traditional energy sources.
koheripbal 5y ago
This is not correct. They constructed that with small batteries - not nearly large enough to smooth out to 99.9% uptime levels.
- bryanlarsen 5y ago
  Nothing has 99.9% uptime, not even nuclear. That's a grid level property, not plant level.
  - koheripbal 5y ago
    I don't think it's useful to disagree about the number of 9s. The point is that nuclear is far more reliable than any other power source. https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/nuclear-power-most-reliable-energy-source-and-its-not-even-close https://www.energy.gov/ne/articles/nuclear-power-most-reliab... https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=23112 https://www.eia.gov/todayinenergy/detail.php?id=23112
    - bryanlarsen 5y ago
      The relevant metric is not reliability, it's reliability per dollar spent. And in that metric a grid built for 95% mix of renewable 5% natgas peaker with geographic diversity will trounce a nuclear. Building nuclear in 2021 is like buying UltraSPARC in 2021. Sure, it's more reliable than a single PC, but a cluster of PC's is way cheaper and more reliable in aggregate.
      - 5y ago

Abimelex 5y ago

Arguing uptime is a bit out of scope here, considering that especially in the US rolling blackouts are very common and the reason is basically the net, not the suppliers. On the contrary a decentralized PV grid would probably open opportunities for a lot of micro grids.

koheripbal 5y ago
This is an extremely hyperbolic comment, bordering on intentionally dishonest. Rolling blackouts are incredibly abnormal, but would be extremely common with solar/wind based power. A diversified power grid would still be subject to weather - which is common across the entire local grid.

pfdietz 5y ago

> And once you install enough storage to make the 9's comparable, the solar/wind is quite a bit more expensive than the nuclear. This is not at all clear, especially going forward. The key is to shave off the last 10% or so with hydrogen and combined cycle, not batteries. https://model.energy/ https://model.energy/ for actual model results