4 ms·

Are you sure about middle class O_o Higher-middle and upper class more likely? Kids which need to earn their money usually go straight into apprenticeship or u

Are you sure about middle class O_o Higher-middle and upper class more likely? Kids which need to earn their money usually go straight into apprenticeship or university and earn money promptly.

ta988 5y ago
Do we really have a precise scale for those things?
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  People tend to flip flop between the classical "wealthy people but not born into centuries old familial wealth on the top end and successful doctors, lawyers and financial professionals on the bottom end" definition and the "blue collar workers plus or minus a little" definition based on whichever is more convenient for the point they are trying to make that minute. Basically the GP is using the former definition and the person you're replying to is using the latter definition. Crap on the Marxists all you want but they do at least have a fairly unambiguous taxonomy for these distinctions.
  - pc86 5y ago
    Most HN readers would be more than a little flummoxed at what "middle class" actually is in the US. The median household income is somewhere between $50-60k depending on where you look. The median individual income is a solid $15-20k less than that. And yet people will still nearly break their own spine trying to convolute a $200k cash comp tech worker as "middle class" because they happen to pay $4k/mo for a shared apartment in San Francisco.
    - jdmichal 5y ago
      Well that depends on whether you're defining middle class as an income or a lifestyle. If the latter, I would certainly not consider any shared living arrangements as "middle class" in the US. Even if your income band puts you in the top 1%. Now, it's quite possible that they're choosing a lesser lifestyle now in order to save and transition to another lifestyle elsewhere. That's what my brother did -- two years in SV saving as much as possible, then moved back to Seattle and bought a house. This is why any of these definitions get really murky, fast.
    - Mauricebranagh 5y ago
      Its "class" we are talking about here and it does exist in the US compare Bill Gates vs Steve Jobs and Woz.
      - pc86 5y ago
        Are those three not in the same "class"?
        ghaff 5y ago
        While Gates was richer than Jobs, once you're in the $100B vs. $10B, you're mostly in the keeping score category. Woz is apparently worth about $100M which is still in the you can buy pretty much anything you want category. So I would say yes. On the other hand, someone who is worth, say, $10M or $20M is obviously still quite wealthy. But not necessarily in the doesn't need to think twice about hopping on a private plane or owning a private island category.
        Mauricebranagh 5y ago
        Not initially anyway its not all about money
        pc86 5y ago
        So what is it about? You're acting like we should all know what you mean. Typically when someone talks about class they referring to income, wealth, and sometimes debt.
    - ska 5y ago
      > at what "middle class" actually is in the US. I think it is deeper than that, the country just has a confused relationship with the entire concept of class by both rejecting and embracing it.
  - Semaphor 5y ago
    > Basically the GP is using the former definition I actually oriented myself more on the numbers for Germany. Which means middle class is a single household with about 2000€ net income per month. That includes a lot of trade workers. It is perfectly possible to finance a gap year without or just minor parental support.
pimterry 5y ago
In the UK it's very common. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/219637/DFE-RR252.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... is some UK gov research that suggests it's about 20% of UK university students, which matches my experiences. Obviously it's easier with rich parents, but it doesn't really require as much cash as you're imagining. It's pretty common to work a little first then use all the cash to travel later for example, or to work while you travel, e.g. by teaching English (TEFL - https://www.tefl.org/blog/why-tefl-on-your-gap-year/ https://www.tefl.org/blog/why-tefl-on-your-gap-year/).
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  Doesn't university student already imply financial security? I don't know how socialist education is in the UK nowadays. I know in the Netherlands it used to be that your education is effectively paid for (either free / you get a scholarship like I did, or a very attractive loan scheme). But they changed the system so it's a loan for everyone now, which will put a damper on how many people go to college / university AND everybody that graduates will be in debt, which works against them if they're looking for a house in an already overheated market.
  - joeberon 5y ago
    It's a bit above £9000 a year but everyone gets a student loan guaranteed, same with some level of means tested maintenance loan. This means that it's usually a "free" upfront cost to go to uni, however you eventually have to pay it off once you become financially eligible to do so
    - dreen 5y ago
      Your last point is important. If you don't earn enough, the loan is never repaid. Also, in the last 10 years or so the cost was tripled.
  - alibarber 5y ago
    The loan in the UK is effectively a tax, and doesn’t really directly play into anything when getting a mortgage for example (but of course your take home is reduced) The point is though - you don’t get anything at all until you actually attend classes. So taking a gap year means having to fund it yourself, or have generous parents but what this comments author describes is closer to ‘normal’ - a large number, not necessarily a majority, of 18year olds will plan out a gap year contingent on taking a part time job at some point and then using that to fund travel or something - before taking up a place on a course (and hence receiving the money) If you have luck/motivation/connections/skillset - you might find a job related to your (future) degree too. I knew several people on my CS course who worked IT support at a local office for a few months whilst living with their parents - then set off on a backpacking trip somewhere exotic.
nicoburns 5y ago
That's not been my experience here in the UK. Plenty of my friends spent 6 months working to pay for 6 months of low-budget travelling before heading off to university or whatever they were planning to do next (or sometimes they hadn't figured out what they were wanting to do next yet)
MrsPeaches 5y ago
Might be a difference in terminology tbh. In the UK "upper class" is used almost exclusively for aristocrats. No matter how rich you are, unless there is a viable way for you to hold a title (e.g. Earl), you will not be considered upper class. Middle class is basically anyone who does knowledge work and has aspirations of home ownership. Your description of "Kids which need to earn their money usually go straight into apprenticeship or university and earn money promptly" would be very likely to be working class kids in the UK i.e. unlikely to be middle class.
- Mauricebranagh 5y ago
  And technically upper class is doesn't need to work and can live of investments / property. Its a bit more complex in the UK ABc1 is middle but their are social distinctions dependant on job not income. For example A Plumber Miner or train driver might make more than an engineer but would be working class. Basically what sort of honour would you get for doing charity work is a good marker
Semaphor 5y ago
Yeah, I am sure (or at least for the time I left school around 15 years ago) I’d even include upper-lower class.

Are you sure about middle class O_o Higher-middle and upper class more likely? Kids which need to earn their money usually go straight into apprenticeship or university and earn money promptly.

ta988 5y ago

Do we really have a precise scale for those things?

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
People tend to flip flop between the classical "wealthy people but not born into centuries old familial wealth on the top end and successful doctors, lawyers and financial professionals on the bottom end" definition and the "blue collar workers plus or minus a little" definition based on whichever is more convenient for the point they are trying to make that minute. Basically the GP is using the former definition and the person you're replying to is using the latter definition. Crap on the Marxists all you want but they do at least have a fairly unambiguous taxonomy for these distinctions.
- pc86 5y ago
  Most HN readers would be more than a little flummoxed at what "middle class" actually is in the US. The median household income is somewhere between $50-60k depending on where you look. The median individual income is a solid $15-20k less than that. And yet people will still nearly break their own spine trying to convolute a $200k cash comp tech worker as "middle class" because they happen to pay $4k/mo for a shared apartment in San Francisco.
  - jdmichal 5y ago
    Well that depends on whether you're defining middle class as an income or a lifestyle. If the latter, I would certainly not consider any shared living arrangements as "middle class" in the US. Even if your income band puts you in the top 1%. Now, it's quite possible that they're choosing a lesser lifestyle now in order to save and transition to another lifestyle elsewhere. That's what my brother did -- two years in SV saving as much as possible, then moved back to Seattle and bought a house. This is why any of these definitions get really murky, fast.
  - Mauricebranagh 5y ago
    Its "class" we are talking about here and it does exist in the US compare Bill Gates vs Steve Jobs and Woz.
    - pc86 5y ago
      Are those three not in the same "class"?
      - ghaff 5y ago
        While Gates was richer than Jobs, once you're in the $100B vs. $10B, you're mostly in the keeping score category. Woz is apparently worth about $100M which is still in the you can buy pretty much anything you want category. So I would say yes. On the other hand, someone who is worth, say, $10M or $20M is obviously still quite wealthy. But not necessarily in the doesn't need to think twice about hopping on a private plane or owning a private island category.
      - Mauricebranagh 5y ago
        Not initially anyway its not all about money
        pc86 5y ago
        So what is it about? You're acting like we should all know what you mean. Typically when someone talks about class they referring to income, wealth, and sometimes debt.
  - ska 5y ago
    > at what "middle class" actually is in the US. I think it is deeper than that, the country just has a confused relationship with the entire concept of class by both rejecting and embracing it.
- Semaphor 5y ago
  > Basically the GP is using the former definition I actually oriented myself more on the numbers for Germany. Which means middle class is a single household with about 2000€ net income per month. That includes a lot of trade workers. It is perfectly possible to finance a gap year without or just minor parental support.

pimterry 5y ago

In the UK it's very common. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/219637/DFE-RR252.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/... is some UK gov research that suggests it's about 20% of UK university students, which matches my experiences. Obviously it's easier with rich parents, but it doesn't really require as much cash as you're imagining. It's pretty common to work a little first then use all the cash to travel later for example, or to work while you travel, e.g. by teaching English (TEFL - https://www.tefl.org/blog/why-tefl-on-your-gap-year/ https://www.tefl.org/blog/why-tefl-on-your-gap-year/).

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Doesn't university student already imply financial security? I don't know how socialist education is in the UK nowadays. I know in the Netherlands it used to be that your education is effectively paid for (either free / you get a scholarship like I did, or a very attractive loan scheme). But they changed the system so it's a loan for everyone now, which will put a damper on how many people go to college / university AND everybody that graduates will be in debt, which works against them if they're looking for a house in an already overheated market.
- joeberon 5y ago
  It's a bit above £9000 a year but everyone gets a student loan guaranteed, same with some level of means tested maintenance loan. This means that it's usually a "free" upfront cost to go to uni, however you eventually have to pay it off once you become financially eligible to do so
  - dreen 5y ago
    Your last point is important. If you don't earn enough, the loan is never repaid. Also, in the last 10 years or so the cost was tripled.
- alibarber 5y ago
  The loan in the UK is effectively a tax, and doesn’t really directly play into anything when getting a mortgage for example (but of course your take home is reduced) The point is though - you don’t get anything at all until you actually attend classes. So taking a gap year means having to fund it yourself, or have generous parents but what this comments author describes is closer to ‘normal’ - a large number, not necessarily a majority, of 18year olds will plan out a gap year contingent on taking a part time job at some point and then using that to fund travel or something - before taking up a place on a course (and hence receiving the money) If you have luck/motivation/connections/skillset - you might find a job related to your (future) degree too. I knew several people on my CS course who worked IT support at a local office for a few months whilst living with their parents - then set off on a backpacking trip somewhere exotic.

nicoburns 5y ago

That's not been my experience here in the UK. Plenty of my friends spent 6 months working to pay for 6 months of low-budget travelling before heading off to university or whatever they were planning to do next (or sometimes they hadn't figured out what they were wanting to do next yet)

MrsPeaches 5y ago

Might be a difference in terminology tbh. In the UK "upper class" is used almost exclusively for aristocrats. No matter how rich you are, unless there is a viable way for you to hold a title (e.g. Earl), you will not be considered upper class. Middle class is basically anyone who does knowledge work and has aspirations of home ownership. Your description of "Kids which need to earn their money usually go straight into apprenticeship or university and earn money promptly" would be very likely to be working class kids in the UK i.e. unlikely to be middle class.

Mauricebranagh 5y ago
And technically upper class is doesn't need to work and can live of investments / property. Its a bit more complex in the UK ABc1 is middle but their are social distinctions dependant on job not income. For example A Plumber Miner or train driver might make more than an engineer but would be working class. Basically what sort of honour would you get for doing charity work is a good marker

Semaphor 5y ago

Yeah, I am sure (or at least for the time I left school around 15 years ago) I’d even include upper-lower class.