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Don't call them side projects. Call them apps, products and businesses. Each one used a particular tech stack, each one had a life-span of some kind: a start, a

Don't call them side projects. Call them apps, products and businesses. Each one used a particular tech stack, each one had a life-span of some kind: a start, a launch or a middle, users maybe, etc. How would you explain all this work if you were hired by a small company to build them? You wouldn't hesitate to claim the years working on these interesting projects as valuable years and part of your career growth and progression. We tend to downplay things we do or build ourselves, as if the very fact that another person (a boss) tells us to do something makes it immediately more valuable than if we choose to do that something ourselves. It doesn't. The app you built because you chose to has just as much value as the app you built because someone paying you a monthly check told you to build it. Wrap your 'side projects' inside a business and claim the credit for all that work.

vmception 5y ago
Pre-revenue businesses with no product fit "I learned a lot so your startup won't fail trust me lol" and no references But yeah they won't care about the crappy products since all the companies you interview with are doing the same, honestly the real followup question would be what do you do about references
- developer93 5y ago
  Employers like a github link, should go some way towards what you need?
  - vmception 5y ago
    Employers don’t really care If you have enough experience for a recruiter to respond at all, none of that extracurricular stuff matters
    - codetrotter 5y ago
      > none of that extracurricular stuff matters But that “extracurricular stuff” is exactly what op has been spending their time doing for the past years.
    - TomVDB 5y ago
      When I’m given a resume with GitHub links, I jump at the opportunity to check them out. (It almost never happens.) You don’t?
      - mewpmewp2 5y ago
        I really don't and I am not aware of anyone at work who would. I rarely even read resumes and that if I am very mixed after the 1 hour coding/design/arch whatever round. I never send my GitHub links either. If I am coding a side project and I think it has business potential I am unlikely to start with open source and if it doesn't have business potential, I wouldn't bother. Also if I am building something on the side, code is likely to be rushed and seemingly horrible. I have no idea what in GitHub was written by the owner itself, what was copied, how long it took them etc.
      - moksly 5y ago
        I don’t. I’m Danish and almost everyone here has some kind of higher education, so our hiring practices are a little different from other countries. Anyway, there is no reason to spend the time looking at what people have done on GitHub. Once you make the final five or ten candidates, we could honestly use sheer chance to decide and end up just fine. The only reason we don’t do that, is because it would be disrespectful to the applicants, but the interviews are as much an opportunity for them to figure out if they want to work with us once they’ve met us, as it is for us to do the same. Hiring people once you move past a certain skill level is much more about finding a common fit, so that you can continue having the good culture that you have already established. It’s not that I think you are wrong to look at github though. It’s just that I don’t feel it’s really ever worth the resources you need to allocate to get a proper picture. I feel the same way about the coding interview, it’s just a waste or everyone’s time. I mean, how can you tell if their GitHub profiles aren’t doctored? If it was too clean or too good, I’d personally be suspicious why they’d work for us.
        mewpmewp2 5y ago
        One thing I'd like to mention about being "fine", you'd be fine, but you could be extremely well off if you are able to find the engineers that go way beyond. I find the multiplying effect of engineers within top 1% can be more than 5x. These folks will take responsibility for everything, innovate and work intelligently, tirelessly and passionately to solve any problems thrown at them as opposed to someone who will just pick up Jira tickets blindly. It's just a little attitude thing that makes so much difference. The way salaries work, they probably don't get 5x salary so they are extremely valuable for the company and to find in general. If you just look at general performance, resumes and things like that you might just get "rest and vest" types.
    - mratsim 5y ago
      People without a Github/Gitlab start with a huge disadvantage in the hiring process at my company since they don't have code to support their claims and that they can walk us through together. Now I get some people don't have time for open-source after work but it's way way easier to ace an interview when it can be based on something you build yourself, can show and can talk about the ins, the outs and the design constraints and your architecture choices.
      - wreath 5y ago
        So few previous employers who bet on you and paid you hundreds of thousands on a yearly basis is not enough cred to prove that you can deliver software that solves business problems?
        sokoloff 5y ago
        If you were at a place for five years, got two promotions, and shipped three products while you were there? Strong evidence. If you were at five places for 9-18 months at a time with several six month gaps interspersed? Not evidence of absence, but that’s absence of evidence to me. (Immediately, I’m assuming several of those gaps might be flameouts.)
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        KptMarchewa 5y ago
        >If you were at five places for 9-18 months at a time with several six month gaps interspersed? I'm curious, what about this situation but no gaps?
        sokoloff 5y ago
        That’s better, because it suggests four times out of four, the decision to leave and timing was yours rather than “seven times out of nine [four listed], the change was employer-initiated”. None of these are signals that I rely on as binary go/no-go gates; the main point was “just because you got other employers to pay you for a short while, that’s not standalone evidence that you can deliver business value through working software”. I don’t believe in jobs-for-life, “putting in your time”, “paying your dues”, “never quit before 2 years”, or other nonsense advice, but if you’ve never had a long stint at a place, at minimum you’ve never seen the pain from your decisions 24 months prior play out and the maximum negative case is far worse.
- risyachka 5y ago
  >> Pre-revenue businesses with no product fit This is true about a majority of small/medium (and sometimes even big) startups.
  - vmception 5y ago
    My comment says that.
pc86 5y ago
I agree with the sentiment, but be careful approaching this from the mindset that closing a handful of GitHub issues or "launching" a zero-user app with no marketing is at the same level as having a job and being assigned tasks by other employees. > We tend to downplay things we do or build ourselves, as if the very fact that another person (a boss) tells us to do something makes it immediately more valuable than if we choose to do that something ourselves. It doesn't. It does, in the sense that it's actually a pretty high bar to get to a point where you can afford employees with management and have directed product growth. It doesn't mean it's better in an absolute sense -- sometimes the very opposite! -- but you might be setting yourself up for disappointment if you don't acknowledge the differences.
throwaway4good 5y ago
I have done this a few times. Be honest about it and describe what you did in details on your resume, so you are able to explain what you did or tried to do in an interview setting. Often these project can be good to have a conversation about because you care more about the technology choices and have full ownership of it.
bluedevil2k 5y ago
I list my job title as “Failed Internet Billionaire” and then list the projects, the problem they were solving and the tech stack. The “job title” always gets a laugh from interviewers. Remember if it’s a technical interview, the person interviewing you most likely has done side projects as well.
- Icathian 5y ago
  I like this a lot. People underestimate coming off as a bit memorable and likeable, even in technical interviews. If you don't mind I'll probably use something very similar if I ever wind up in that situation.
- starkd 5y ago
  Nice touch. Except maybe better not to use the word "failed". It's a needless association. Maybe something like partially successful internet entrepreneur.
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    Eh, "successful" makes me think, why do they need a job here? I like the failed internet billionaire. It's clever, obviously tongue-in-cheek, and implies one shot for the moon, but landed among the stars.
    - etrautmann 5y ago
      Yep - it indicates a level of self-awareness and the ability to not take yourself too seriously, which is something I would appreciate even subconsciously as an interviewer.
  - FPGAhacker 5y ago
    Unrealized Internet Billionaire. I recommend against attempts at humor front and center like this on a resume. It’s too early. I’m in a serious mood trying to solve a serious problem when I’m reviewing resumes. This would fall very flat with me. I would not think you were serious about finding work. Sneak in some humor later and it might work. If I’m interested enough to read the details of your resume, something humorous later on might get a chuckle out of me.
corobo 5y ago
> We tend to downplay things we do or build ourselves, as if the very fact that another person (a boss) tells us to do something makes it immediately more valuable than if we choose to do that something ourselves. Oh wow this just clicked something for me. I need to do that for me too so that I actually work on the damn things instead of thinking of them as projects on the side
firemelt 5y ago
any example or inspiration to build awesome narrative for that? I think you are right I used to downplay my side projects. when someone ask about it I just said "just another simple projects "
s_dev 5y ago
>We tend to downplay things we do or build ourselves, as if the very fact that another person (a boss) tells us to do something makes it immediately more valuable than if we choose to do that something ourselves. I disagree, if you built something that involved collaborating with others thats inherently more valuable than what you build on your own. The reason is simple -- external assessment is ALWAYS preferred to self assessment of skill. It's the difference between you saying you're a good programmer and someone else saying you're a good programmer. That small bit of indirection is very important.
- jeffreyrogers 5y ago
  If the apps still exist or had users he can just point to that. You don't really need to have collaborated with others. Plenty of valuable software is done by solo developers.
  - s_dev 5y ago
    Yes but those "solo devs" are assessed externally usually from open source development etc. They haven't gotten where they are by saying they're really good. It has always been other people valuing and praising their contributions that gives them perceived value.
agumonkey 5y ago
What level of complexity is required? I made a genuine vuejs app (single user) for someone's tiny business (as learning pretense). To recruiters it's as if it was a waste of their time to even listen to me mentioning it. Do I need to clone Instagram to allow myself a line on a resume

vmception 5y ago

Pre-revenue businesses with no product fit "I learned a lot so your startup won't fail trust me lol" and no references But yeah they won't care about the crappy products since all the companies you interview with are doing the same, honestly the real followup question would be what do you do about references

developer93 5y ago
Employers like a github link, should go some way towards what you need?
- vmception 5y ago
  Employers don’t really care If you have enough experience for a recruiter to respond at all, none of that extracurricular stuff matters
  - codetrotter 5y ago
    > none of that extracurricular stuff matters But that “extracurricular stuff” is exactly what op has been spending their time doing for the past years.
  - TomVDB 5y ago
    When I’m given a resume with GitHub links, I jump at the opportunity to check them out. (It almost never happens.) You don’t?
    - mewpmewp2 5y ago
      I really don't and I am not aware of anyone at work who would. I rarely even read resumes and that if I am very mixed after the 1 hour coding/design/arch whatever round. I never send my GitHub links either. If I am coding a side project and I think it has business potential I am unlikely to start with open source and if it doesn't have business potential, I wouldn't bother. Also if I am building something on the side, code is likely to be rushed and seemingly horrible. I have no idea what in GitHub was written by the owner itself, what was copied, how long it took them etc.
    - moksly 5y ago
      I don’t. I’m Danish and almost everyone here has some kind of higher education, so our hiring practices are a little different from other countries. Anyway, there is no reason to spend the time looking at what people have done on GitHub. Once you make the final five or ten candidates, we could honestly use sheer chance to decide and end up just fine. The only reason we don’t do that, is because it would be disrespectful to the applicants, but the interviews are as much an opportunity for them to figure out if they want to work with us once they’ve met us, as it is for us to do the same. Hiring people once you move past a certain skill level is much more about finding a common fit, so that you can continue having the good culture that you have already established. It’s not that I think you are wrong to look at github though. It’s just that I don’t feel it’s really ever worth the resources you need to allocate to get a proper picture. I feel the same way about the coding interview, it’s just a waste or everyone’s time. I mean, how can you tell if their GitHub profiles aren’t doctored? If it was too clean or too good, I’d personally be suspicious why they’d work for us.
      - mewpmewp2 5y ago
        One thing I'd like to mention about being "fine", you'd be fine, but you could be extremely well off if you are able to find the engineers that go way beyond. I find the multiplying effect of engineers within top 1% can be more than 5x. These folks will take responsibility for everything, innovate and work intelligently, tirelessly and passionately to solve any problems thrown at them as opposed to someone who will just pick up Jira tickets blindly. It's just a little attitude thing that makes so much difference. The way salaries work, they probably don't get 5x salary so they are extremely valuable for the company and to find in general. If you just look at general performance, resumes and things like that you might just get "rest and vest" types.
  - mratsim 5y ago
    People without a Github/Gitlab start with a huge disadvantage in the hiring process at my company since they don't have code to support their claims and that they can walk us through together. Now I get some people don't have time for open-source after work but it's way way easier to ace an interview when it can be based on something you build yourself, can show and can talk about the ins, the outs and the design constraints and your architecture choices.
    - wreath 5y ago
      So few previous employers who bet on you and paid you hundreds of thousands on a yearly basis is not enough cred to prove that you can deliver software that solves business problems?
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        If you were at a place for five years, got two promotions, and shipped three products while you were there? Strong evidence. If you were at five places for 9-18 months at a time with several six month gaps interspersed? Not evidence of absence, but that’s absence of evidence to me. (Immediately, I’m assuming several of those gaps might be flameouts.)
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
        KptMarchewa 5y ago
        >If you were at five places for 9-18 months at a time with several six month gaps interspersed? I'm curious, what about this situation but no gaps?
        sokoloff 5y ago
        That’s better, because it suggests four times out of four, the decision to leave and timing was yours rather than “seven times out of nine [four listed], the change was employer-initiated”. None of these are signals that I rely on as binary go/no-go gates; the main point was “just because you got other employers to pay you for a short while, that’s not standalone evidence that you can deliver business value through working software”. I don’t believe in jobs-for-life, “putting in your time”, “paying your dues”, “never quit before 2 years”, or other nonsense advice, but if you’ve never had a long stint at a place, at minimum you’ve never seen the pain from your decisions 24 months prior play out and the maximum negative case is far worse.
risyachka 5y ago
>> Pre-revenue businesses with no product fit This is true about a majority of small/medium (and sometimes even big) startups.
- vmception 5y ago
  My comment says that.

pc86 5y ago

I agree with the sentiment, but be careful approaching this from the mindset that closing a handful of GitHub issues or "launching" a zero-user app with no marketing is at the same level as having a job and being assigned tasks by other employees. > We tend to downplay things we do or build ourselves, as if the very fact that another person (a boss) tells us to do something makes it immediately more valuable than if we choose to do that something ourselves. It doesn't. It does, in the sense that it's actually a pretty high bar to get to a point where you can afford employees with management and have directed product growth. It doesn't mean it's better in an absolute sense -- sometimes the very opposite! -- but you might be setting yourself up for disappointment if you don't acknowledge the differences.

throwaway4good 5y ago

I have done this a few times. Be honest about it and describe what you did in details on your resume, so you are able to explain what you did or tried to do in an interview setting. Often these project can be good to have a conversation about because you care more about the technology choices and have full ownership of it.

bluedevil2k 5y ago

I list my job title as “Failed Internet Billionaire” and then list the projects, the problem they were solving and the tech stack. The “job title” always gets a laugh from interviewers. Remember if it’s a technical interview, the person interviewing you most likely has done side projects as well.

Icathian 5y ago
I like this a lot. People underestimate coming off as a bit memorable and likeable, even in technical interviews. If you don't mind I'll probably use something very similar if I ever wind up in that situation.
starkd 5y ago
Nice touch. Except maybe better not to use the word "failed". It's a needless association. Maybe something like partially successful internet entrepreneur.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  Eh, "successful" makes me think, why do they need a job here? I like the failed internet billionaire. It's clever, obviously tongue-in-cheek, and implies one shot for the moon, but landed among the stars.
  - etrautmann 5y ago
    Yep - it indicates a level of self-awareness and the ability to not take yourself too seriously, which is something I would appreciate even subconsciously as an interviewer.
- FPGAhacker 5y ago
  Unrealized Internet Billionaire. I recommend against attempts at humor front and center like this on a resume. It’s too early. I’m in a serious mood trying to solve a serious problem when I’m reviewing resumes. This would fall very flat with me. I would not think you were serious about finding work. Sneak in some humor later and it might work. If I’m interested enough to read the details of your resume, something humorous later on might get a chuckle out of me.

corobo 5y ago

> We tend to downplay things we do or build ourselves, as if the very fact that another person (a boss) tells us to do something makes it immediately more valuable than if we choose to do that something ourselves. Oh wow this just clicked something for me. I need to do that for me too so that I actually work on the damn things instead of thinking of them as projects on the side

firemelt 5y ago

any example or inspiration to build awesome narrative for that? I think you are right I used to downplay my side projects. when someone ask about it I just said "just another simple projects "

s_dev 5y ago

>We tend to downplay things we do or build ourselves, as if the very fact that another person (a boss) tells us to do something makes it immediately more valuable than if we choose to do that something ourselves. I disagree, if you built something that involved collaborating with others thats inherently more valuable than what you build on your own. The reason is simple -- external assessment is ALWAYS preferred to self assessment of skill. It's the difference between you saying you're a good programmer and someone else saying you're a good programmer. That small bit of indirection is very important.

jeffreyrogers 5y ago
If the apps still exist or had users he can just point to that. You don't really need to have collaborated with others. Plenty of valuable software is done by solo developers.
- s_dev 5y ago
  Yes but those "solo devs" are assessed externally usually from open source development etc. They haven't gotten where they are by saying they're really good. It has always been other people valuing and praising their contributions that gives them perceived value.

agumonkey 5y ago

What level of complexity is required? I made a genuine vuejs app (single user) for someone's tiny business (as learning pretense). To recruiters it's as if it was a waste of their time to even listen to me mentioning it. Do I need to clone Instagram to allow myself a line on a resume