5 ms·

I think the OP realizes that it was a joke, but argues that it was an unfunny, inappropriate joke.

wyclif 15y ago
I don't have anything invested in this one way or the other, but it all strikes me as a bit PC and oversensitive. I don't think I really want to work in an environment where considerations like this reign. I wonder if the author would prefer speech codes in the workplace. If so, I'm glad I don't work with her. I think startups should carefully screen for people with attitudes like the author (note: I'm not saying screening out women, for those who can't read carefully); not doing so could be costly in court, as well as having a frigid effect on company culture.
- michael_dorfman 15y ago
  I'm a bit puzzled by this. We're not talking about "workplace speech codes" here, or lawsuits, at all, so you appear to by attempting to insert a slippery slope where there's no need for one. The case here is about a public presentation where a presenter offered up a rather bizarre, inappropriate image (a faceless woman labelled "bitch") which bore no relation to the talk he was giving, and then followed it up with a non-sequitur about it being "an ex-girlfriend." Now, it's hard to read that as anything but misogynist, and while it might be considered an ill-fated attempt at humor, it misses the mark by such a wide margin as to make one wonder exactly what Noah thought he was doing. Trying to dismiss it as "a bit PC and oversensitive" it another way of saying "Since I wasn't offended, I don't need to take seriously the possibility that somebody else might have been." But in this case, even that doesn't seem to fit, because putting "a faceless bitch" on the projector seems designed to shock.
  - wyclif 15y ago
    You're absolutely right that this isn't the workplace. It was a tech conference talk. Which only puts a finer point on what I mean by policing speech. I do NOT want to go to a conference knowing all the talks have been run through some bullshit politically-correct filter to please a given group of people in the room, and if I find out they are, I will cease attending those conferences.
    - michael_dorfman 15y ago
      Nobody is proposing having anyone "policing speech". What we are discussing is one individual's massive failure in self-policing, and another individual's response, calling him on it. Nobody's trying to change the system. Rather, this is how the system works: when you're a presenter, you say what you want. If you act like a jerk, people will most likely publicly point out that you acted like a jerk, which should theoretically lead to some self-insight for the presenter in question. I'm still puzzled by your presumed outrage.
      - teadrinker 15y ago
        Self-policing? Are you serious? I'm with the other guy on this one. I want to live in a free society, where no one attempts to enforce some artificial moral code on what I can or can not say. Don't like it, leave. Enough people like Noah to get him a sizable fan base and enjoy his humor. It DOES tend to be women who create artificial PC rules, and I would argue that is one of the reasons they are underrepresented within startup ups, given the traditional lack of sophisticated social skills of the (usually male) engineers. It would ruin the dynamic of a good team to have a PC woman "watching their every word" for perceived slights.
        pyre 15y ago
        > I'm with the other guy on this one. I want to live > in a free society, where no one attempts to enforce > some artificial moral code on what I can or can not > say. Don't like it, leave. I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem like you understand how human society currently works. In a 'free society,' if a majority of people think you are an asshole, they are going to treat you like one. If you don't want to be treated like an asshole, you'll have to adjust your behavior. Technically, this is forcing you to self-censor yourself, but it's a hell of a lot better than state-censorship or even organizational-censorship. I'd be curious how you would approach eliminating this sort of 'censorship.' So far as I can tell, it would impose the idea on other people that they can't think or act the way they want to just so that 'you' can feel comfortable walking around acting like an ass (and living in a fantasy where you believe that no one thinks you're an ass).
- rickmb 15y ago
  Do I understand correctly that you believe it is okay to refer to a woman as a "bitch" in the workplace (and startups should actively screen for people who feel otherwise)? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm just taking your suggestion to "read carefully" very seriously indeed, because right now it seems to me you are making a statement about yourself you may regret later.
  - teadrinker 15y ago
    Did Noah know the word Bitch would set her off? How about other words which are commonplace, which would she feel insulted by? We don't know. And I think it is for this added uncertainty to a team that he was referring to rather than the specific term "bitch" which is, of course, commonly considered offensive in a workplace, particularly in direct reference to a known individual.
  - wyclif 15y ago
    No, you don't understand correctly. Did you not read the distinction I've made several times here about a joke uttered at a conference and calling a woman a bitch on the job? No, I don't think the latter is acceptable at all. And the screening I referred to is not for potential sexual harrassment claims, which I BTW take very seriously (my wife is a professional)-- it's for people, male and female, who are professionally and continually aggrieved. Regrets? Not on HN. Karma is like that.
  - roel_v 15y ago
    What's the problem with calling someone who is being a bitch a bitch? I call people who are being sniveling weasels sniveling weasels. Some people are just bitches, and it's not even restricted to people with a certain chromosome makeup.
- astrec 15y ago
  In most [westernized] countries, including the US, workplace considerations like this not only reign but are the law.
  - wyclif 15y ago
    Good thing for Noah it wasn't spoken at a workplace.

I don't have anything invested in this one way or the other, but it all strikes me as a bit PC and oversensitive. I don't think I really want to work in an environment where considerations like this reign. I wonder if the author would prefer speech codes in the workplace. If so, I'm glad I don't work with her. I think startups should carefully screen for people with attitudes like the author (note: I'm not saying screening out women, for those who can't read carefully); not doing so could be costly in court, as well as having a frigid effect on company culture.

michael_dorfman 15y ago
I'm a bit puzzled by this. We're not talking about "workplace speech codes" here, or lawsuits, at all, so you appear to by attempting to insert a slippery slope where there's no need for one. The case here is about a public presentation where a presenter offered up a rather bizarre, inappropriate image (a faceless woman labelled "bitch") which bore no relation to the talk he was giving, and then followed it up with a non-sequitur about it being "an ex-girlfriend." Now, it's hard to read that as anything but misogynist, and while it might be considered an ill-fated attempt at humor, it misses the mark by such a wide margin as to make one wonder exactly what Noah thought he was doing. Trying to dismiss it as "a bit PC and oversensitive" it another way of saying "Since I wasn't offended, I don't need to take seriously the possibility that somebody else might have been." But in this case, even that doesn't seem to fit, because putting "a faceless bitch" on the projector seems designed to shock.
- wyclif 15y ago
  You're absolutely right that this isn't the workplace. It was a tech conference talk. Which only puts a finer point on what I mean by policing speech. I do NOT want to go to a conference knowing all the talks have been run through some bullshit politically-correct filter to please a given group of people in the room, and if I find out they are, I will cease attending those conferences.
  - michael_dorfman 15y ago
    Nobody is proposing having anyone "policing speech". What we are discussing is one individual's massive failure in self-policing, and another individual's response, calling him on it. Nobody's trying to change the system. Rather, this is how the system works: when you're a presenter, you say what you want. If you act like a jerk, people will most likely publicly point out that you acted like a jerk, which should theoretically lead to some self-insight for the presenter in question. I'm still puzzled by your presumed outrage.
    - teadrinker 15y ago
      Self-policing? Are you serious? I'm with the other guy on this one. I want to live in a free society, where no one attempts to enforce some artificial moral code on what I can or can not say. Don't like it, leave. Enough people like Noah to get him a sizable fan base and enjoy his humor. It DOES tend to be women who create artificial PC rules, and I would argue that is one of the reasons they are underrepresented within startup ups, given the traditional lack of sophisticated social skills of the (usually male) engineers. It would ruin the dynamic of a good team to have a PC woman "watching their every word" for perceived slights.
      - pyre 15y ago
        > I'm with the other guy on this one. I want to live > in a free society, where no one attempts to enforce > some artificial moral code on what I can or can not > say. Don't like it, leave. I'm sorry, but it doesn't seem like you understand how human society currently works. In a 'free society,' if a majority of people think you are an asshole, they are going to treat you like one. If you don't want to be treated like an asshole, you'll have to adjust your behavior. Technically, this is forcing you to self-censor yourself, but it's a hell of a lot better than state-censorship or even organizational-censorship. I'd be curious how you would approach eliminating this sort of 'censorship.' So far as I can tell, it would impose the idea on other people that they can't think or act the way they want to just so that 'you' can feel comfortable walking around acting like an ass (and living in a fantasy where you believe that no one thinks you're an ass).
rickmb 15y ago
Do I understand correctly that you believe it is okay to refer to a woman as a "bitch" in the workplace (and startups should actively screen for people who feel otherwise)? This is not a rhetorical question, I'm just taking your suggestion to "read carefully" very seriously indeed, because right now it seems to me you are making a statement about yourself you may regret later.
- teadrinker 15y ago
  Did Noah know the word Bitch would set her off? How about other words which are commonplace, which would she feel insulted by? We don't know. And I think it is for this added uncertainty to a team that he was referring to rather than the specific term "bitch" which is, of course, commonly considered offensive in a workplace, particularly in direct reference to a known individual.
- wyclif 15y ago
  No, you don't understand correctly. Did you not read the distinction I've made several times here about a joke uttered at a conference and calling a woman a bitch on the job? No, I don't think the latter is acceptable at all. And the screening I referred to is not for potential sexual harrassment claims, which I BTW take very seriously (my wife is a professional)-- it's for people, male and female, who are professionally and continually aggrieved. Regrets? Not on HN. Karma is like that.
- roel_v 15y ago
  What's the problem with calling someone who is being a bitch a bitch? I call people who are being sniveling weasels sniveling weasels. Some people are just bitches, and it's not even restricted to people with a certain chromosome makeup.
astrec 15y ago
In most [westernized] countries, including the US, workplace considerations like this not only reign but are the law.
- wyclif 15y ago
  Good thing for Noah it wasn't spoken at a workplace.