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Is there a trend of written language simplifying over the ages? (Greek and Chinese examples come to mind). Is there an objective way to measure / rank script co

Is there a trend of written language simplifying over the ages? (Greek and Chinese examples come to mind). Is there an objective way to measure / rank script complexity? Assuming its true, is it correlated with more people becoming literate over time (hence simplifying the educational process)?

evnix 5y ago
Indian languages havent had any change in their pronunciation in the last 2000 years but that is because of the very nature of the script. though I would agree, when it comes to Indian languages and their scripts, the symbols dont look any simpler but people tend not to use the entire set of consonant and vowel symbols available to them and only stick to using the simpler ones and likely the ones closer to English. another thing that I notice is that newer words don't have consonants followed by two or more consonants, the new words tend to look like stream of syllables with simple consonants followed by vowels.
- bregma 5y ago
  I would like to register my scepticism that Indian languages have not changed their pronunciation over multiple millennia. My wife had a professor from India who spoke Hindi as a mother tongue. His wife, also from India, also had Hindi as a mother tongue but was from a different village. The couple spoke only English at home because it was the only language they had in common. You do not get that kind of mutually-unintelligible divergence unless the language has had changes in pronunciation, and profound ones at that. It's quite possible that among a small subset of elites that languages have remained unchanged, but I think even that is highly unlikely. The Latin spoken by the educated elites of Europe at the time of the renaissance would have been unintelligble to someone on the streets of the eternal city during the republic. I suspect that such an assertion that the languages have remained unchanged for millennia is just simply not backed by facts.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  > Indian languages havent had any change in their pronunciation in the last 2000 years This is an ideological belief -- it is not even a theoretical possibility.
idoubtit 5y ago
The Greek alphabet was derived from the Phoenician alphabet, and the fact that it replaced the local writing and spread quickly suggests that a simpler technique of writing can win. I think the trend you see is the most common behavior. But the evolution of written languages is not a simple process. It is often influenced by political choice. E.g. Hangul for Korean, simplification laws in Germany or France. I can think of few exceptions where the simplification of a written language was rejected. The Sumerian ideograms were simplified after their introduction circa -3300. The writing system was adapted to the Akkadian language which was the dominant spoken languages for centuries. It mixed pure ideograms with double readings and syllabic symbols (a bit like Japanese). But after 900 BC, when neo-Assyrian ruled, Akkadian was declining, as well as writing on clay. There was a clear tendency to complexify the tablets: for example adding more symbols or reviving archaic expressions. Akkadian was the language of the elites, and simplifying it would "degrade" it. Disclaimer: I have been interested in ancient writings, with a particular attention to Mesopotamia, but I'm not an expert.
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  We can see a similar drift toward complexity in the written language by looking at text messaging in the modern day. The old system was that e.g. "before" was written "before". Now it might be written that way, or it might be written "b4". The second form is easier for the scribe, but requires a lot more knowledge on the part of the reader. The shorthand, which makes things difficult for the partially-educated (such as foreigners) is a result of mass literacy. If text messaging had been restricted to formal elite-to-elite communications, they would have gone on writing "before" the same way they'd been doing it all along. I suspect something similar contributed to the trend you describe in Akkadian texts; with Akkadian in decline, the only people using it would probably have been more familiar with it than average. And that familiarity would let them use it in ways that wouldn't have made sense to a merchant's wife trying to send a letter to her husband abroad.
pixodaros 5y ago
The accents (and word separations and upper case / lower case distinctions) were added after classical Greek had become a learned language like Shakespearean and KJV English is today. They helped people who spoke later forms of Greek pronounce old texts.

evnix 5y ago

Indian languages havent had any change in their pronunciation in the last 2000 years but that is because of the very nature of the script. though I would agree, when it comes to Indian languages and their scripts, the symbols dont look any simpler but people tend not to use the entire set of consonant and vowel symbols available to them and only stick to using the simpler ones and likely the ones closer to English. another thing that I notice is that newer words don't have consonants followed by two or more consonants, the new words tend to look like stream of syllables with simple consonants followed by vowels.

bregma 5y ago
I would like to register my scepticism that Indian languages have not changed their pronunciation over multiple millennia. My wife had a professor from India who spoke Hindi as a mother tongue. His wife, also from India, also had Hindi as a mother tongue but was from a different village. The couple spoke only English at home because it was the only language they had in common. You do not get that kind of mutually-unintelligible divergence unless the language has had changes in pronunciation, and profound ones at that. It's quite possible that among a small subset of elites that languages have remained unchanged, but I think even that is highly unlikely. The Latin spoken by the educated elites of Europe at the time of the renaissance would have been unintelligble to someone on the streets of the eternal city during the republic. I suspect that such an assertion that the languages have remained unchanged for millennia is just simply not backed by facts.
thaumasiotes 5y ago
> Indian languages havent had any change in their pronunciation in the last 2000 years This is an ideological belief -- it is not even a theoretical possibility.

idoubtit 5y ago

The Greek alphabet was derived from the Phoenician alphabet, and the fact that it replaced the local writing and spread quickly suggests that a simpler technique of writing can win. I think the trend you see is the most common behavior. But the evolution of written languages is not a simple process. It is often influenced by political choice. E.g. Hangul for Korean, simplification laws in Germany or France. I can think of few exceptions where the simplification of a written language was rejected. The Sumerian ideograms were simplified after their introduction circa -3300. The writing system was adapted to the Akkadian language which was the dominant spoken languages for centuries. It mixed pure ideograms with double readings and syllabic symbols (a bit like Japanese). But after 900 BC, when neo-Assyrian ruled, Akkadian was declining, as well as writing on clay. There was a clear tendency to complexify the tablets: for example adding more symbols or reviving archaic expressions. Akkadian was the language of the elites, and simplifying it would "degrade" it. Disclaimer: I have been interested in ancient writings, with a particular attention to Mesopotamia, but I'm not an expert.

thaumasiotes 5y ago
We can see a similar drift toward complexity in the written language by looking at text messaging in the modern day. The old system was that e.g. "before" was written "before". Now it might be written that way, or it might be written "b4". The second form is easier for the scribe, but requires a lot more knowledge on the part of the reader. The shorthand, which makes things difficult for the partially-educated (such as foreigners) is a result of mass literacy. If text messaging had been restricted to formal elite-to-elite communications, they would have gone on writing "before" the same way they'd been doing it all along. I suspect something similar contributed to the trend you describe in Akkadian texts; with Akkadian in decline, the only people using it would probably have been more familiar with it than average. And that familiarity would let them use it in ways that wouldn't have made sense to a merchant's wife trying to send a letter to her husband abroad.

pixodaros 5y ago

The accents (and word separations and upper case / lower case distinctions) were added after classical Greek had become a learned language like Shakespearean and KJV English is today. They helped people who spoke later forms of Greek pronounce old texts.