7 ms·

Do you believe animals eating other animals to be immoral as well?

by nec4b 5y ago

claudiawerner 5y ago
As far as we know, humans are the only animals with moral agency (though there is some debate on this topic). That said, the immoral actions of one person (or animal, or society, etc.) does not absolve others of moral responsibility. Even if animals act immorally, this doesn't provide an excuse for humans to act in the same way.
sweetheart 5y ago
Nope. But if those animals ever develop advanced societies with agriculture, the ability to reason about morality, and ways to live long healthy lives _without_ eating other animals, then I'll expect them to. Right now, that's only humans, so I only hold humans to this standard.
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  But why is it immoral to eat another animal? Whether or not someone can "reason about morality", the question is what is moral and what is immoral. So why is it immoral to eat another animal? You say you hold humans to a certain standard (of morality). But why does this standard entail an avoidance of eating meat? What is immoral about eating meat and what is moral about avoiding it?
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Because it involves causing extreme suffering, and we definitively do not need to do it to live long healthy lives. Literally just watch Dominion. Watch it to see the suffering I’m talking about. Why do you think animals deserve this so that you can eat a meal? Is that agony they exist in for their whole life worth a hamburger, or a piece of cheese? Vegans say no. https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko
    - cheese_goddess 5y ago
      The images you share are of factory farming that is indeed an atrocity that must be eliminated. There is no justification for treating animals like this. However, my question was "why is it immoral to eat another animal"? Are you perhaps suggesting that the only way to eat another animal is by causing the extreme suffering undergone by cows in American factory farms? It should be obvious that this is not the case: people eat meat all over the world, but American factory farms exist only in the Americas and farming in other places does not involve the kind of extreme suffering that you point out. For example, most of the meat I eat is from sheep and goats that graze freely in meadows and hills around the place where I live, in the Eastern Mediterrannean. I know that is true because I see those animals everytime I go out. Some goats live in the farm I'm staying and I can assure you that they are not suffering one bit. In general, the animals raised by small-scale farmers, in herds of no more than a few dozen animals, are amonng the happiest, healthiest, best fed, best cared for animals the world over, some even better cared than human infants. Bottom line, it is perfectly possible to eat meat without causing the extreme suffering you are concerned about. To be clear, I absolutely agree with you that causing extreme suffering, of the kind in the video you shared, or of any kind at all, is absolutely morally repugnant. But this extreme suffering is characteristic of factory farmign, not of eating another animal, and so I am not satisfied that I understand why you think that it is immoral to eat another animal. Edit: I keep rewriting the above to make myself more clear, but everytime I read it, it sounds like something from a high school debate. What I really want to achieve is to understand how you think and maybe help you understand how I think, if that's interesting to you at all. So if something I say sounds completey wrong to you, please let me know and I'll try to make it more clear. I am not looking to score points in a futile internet fight. I'll be happy if we can find some common ground- and I can see that we already have some: I think we're both disgusted by the horrors in the video you shared.
      - sweetheart 5y ago
        Over 99% of all animals killed are killed on factory farms, so pointing out a handle of farms that are NOT factory farms doesn't really do much. If less than 1% of the animals we are talking about are covered by the farms your talking about, its a pretty meaningless statistic. Also, you clearly didn't watch the film because it doesn't discuss American farms, it clearly focuses on Australian farms. Here is a link to the same practices being done in Britain: https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/ https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/ These practices are industry standard across the world, though. Peter Singer writes about this in "Animal Liberation". Let me know if you don't want to or cannot pay for a copy of the book and I'll buy it for you. He discusses at _length_ how these standards exists worldwide. Besides, even those small farms are deeply unethical. They kill animals a mere fraction into their lifespans, and do so in horrific ways, often inhumanely. Killing an animal that does not want to die, if it doesnt need to, is always wrong. The onus is now on you to educate yourself. I'm done with this conversation. I've pointed you to many places where you can learn about the problem, both in this thread and others in this comment section. If you choose not to, then you choose to remain ignorant to what is happening around the world, every day. Here is the most comprehensive list of vegan resources and studies that I know of: https://www.vegancheatsheet.org https://www.vegancheatsheet.org I suggest you dig into some of those studies and try tearing them apart. Watch some of those films and find reasons why they are bullshit. Then message me (email is in my profile), and tell me how wrong I am. But only after you've really made an effort to understand the issues. Remember, I was a carnist for almost the first 30 years of my life, so I know how you feel. I'm asking you to challenge yourself and really see the issue from the other side.

Do you believe animals eating other animals to be immoral as well?

by nec4b 5y ago

Do you believe animals eating other animals to be immoral as well?

As far as we know, humans are the only animals with moral agency (though there is some debate on this topic). That said, the immoral actions of one person (or animal, or society, etc.) does not absolve others of moral responsibility. Even if animals act immorally, this doesn't provide an excuse for humans to act in the same way.

sweetheart 5y ago

Nope. But if those animals ever develop advanced societies with agriculture, the ability to reason about morality, and ways to live long healthy lives _without_ eating other animals, then I'll expect them to. Right now, that's only humans, so I only hold humans to this standard.

cheese_goddess 5y ago
But why is it immoral to eat another animal? Whether or not someone can "reason about morality", the question is what is moral and what is immoral. So why is it immoral to eat another animal? You say you hold humans to a certain standard (of morality). But why does this standard entail an avoidance of eating meat? What is immoral about eating meat and what is moral about avoiding it?
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Because it involves causing extreme suffering, and we definitively do not need to do it to live long healthy lives. Literally just watch Dominion. Watch it to see the suffering I’m talking about. Why do you think animals deserve this so that you can eat a meal? Is that agony they exist in for their whole life worth a hamburger, or a piece of cheese? Vegans say no. https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko https://youtu.be/LQRAfJyEsko
  - cheese_goddess 5y ago
    The images you share are of factory farming that is indeed an atrocity that must be eliminated. There is no justification for treating animals like this. However, my question was "why is it immoral to eat another animal"? Are you perhaps suggesting that the only way to eat another animal is by causing the extreme suffering undergone by cows in American factory farms? It should be obvious that this is not the case: people eat meat all over the world, but American factory farms exist only in the Americas and farming in other places does not involve the kind of extreme suffering that you point out. For example, most of the meat I eat is from sheep and goats that graze freely in meadows and hills around the place where I live, in the Eastern Mediterrannean. I know that is true because I see those animals everytime I go out. Some goats live in the farm I'm staying and I can assure you that they are not suffering one bit. In general, the animals raised by small-scale farmers, in herds of no more than a few dozen animals, are amonng the happiest, healthiest, best fed, best cared for animals the world over, some even better cared than human infants. Bottom line, it is perfectly possible to eat meat without causing the extreme suffering you are concerned about. To be clear, I absolutely agree with you that causing extreme suffering, of the kind in the video you shared, or of any kind at all, is absolutely morally repugnant. But this extreme suffering is characteristic of factory farmign, not of eating another animal, and so I am not satisfied that I understand why you think that it is immoral to eat another animal. Edit: I keep rewriting the above to make myself more clear, but everytime I read it, it sounds like something from a high school debate. What I really want to achieve is to understand how you think and maybe help you understand how I think, if that's interesting to you at all. So if something I say sounds completey wrong to you, please let me know and I'll try to make it more clear. I am not looking to score points in a futile internet fight. I'll be happy if we can find some common ground- and I can see that we already have some: I think we're both disgusted by the horrors in the video you shared.
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      Over 99% of all animals killed are killed on factory farms, so pointing out a handle of farms that are NOT factory farms doesn't really do much. If less than 1% of the animals we are talking about are covered by the farms your talking about, its a pretty meaningless statistic. Also, you clearly didn't watch the film because it doesn't discuss American farms, it clearly focuses on Australian farms. Here is a link to the same practices being done in Britain: https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/ https://www.landofhopeandglory.org/ These practices are industry standard across the world, though. Peter Singer writes about this in "Animal Liberation". Let me know if you don't want to or cannot pay for a copy of the book and I'll buy it for you. He discusses at _length_ how these standards exists worldwide. Besides, even those small farms are deeply unethical. They kill animals a mere fraction into their lifespans, and do so in horrific ways, often inhumanely. Killing an animal that does not want to die, if it doesnt need to, is always wrong. The onus is now on you to educate yourself. I'm done with this conversation. I've pointed you to many places where you can learn about the problem, both in this thread and others in this comment section. If you choose not to, then you choose to remain ignorant to what is happening around the world, every day. Here is the most comprehensive list of vegan resources and studies that I know of: https://www.vegancheatsheet.org https://www.vegancheatsheet.org I suggest you dig into some of those studies and try tearing them apart. Watch some of those films and find reasons why they are bullshit. Then message me (email is in my profile), and tell me how wrong I am. But only after you've really made an effort to understand the issues. Remember, I was a carnist for almost the first 30 years of my life, so I know how you feel. I'm asking you to challenge yourself and really see the issue from the other side.