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Thats not true for math / science. Math is based on fundamental global laws which exist and can be checked from everyone and they can come up all with the same

by Haiatu 5y ago

Thats not true for math / science. Math is based on fundamental global laws which exist and can be checked from everyone and they can come up all with the same math. We could isolate a baby and it could create the same math while it couldn't create the same religion.

mensetmanusman 5y ago
Math is based on human chosen axioms. Actually, there are a lot of different sub fields of math that have different subsets of axioms to solve different types of problems. The axioms can never be proven though, they are just grounding. Isolating a human is analogous to removing oxygen. Few would argue that someone brain dead could create anything.
- Haiatu 5y ago
  I'm really not sure how you can missread my example to come up with 'isoalting a human is analogous to removing oxygen'. My comparison is based on sciencse vs. fiction. 1+1 = 2 is a reality which works in german, africa, usa and everywhere else. There might be a difference on how those symbols (1, 2...) look like but the axiom is true and valid and is discoverable. In religion its not. Concept of god exists but it looks different depending on your believe. Multiply gods, one god, good god, bad god... Even the stuff written down is based on someone who wrote it down and still people interpretate it totally different. Never seen someone implying they are right that 1+1=3 if the interpretation of 3 is not 'next after one'.
  - mahogany 5y ago
    1+1=2 is not really an axiom. There's a set of axioms that lead to that. They are even more primordial statements like "1 is a number" and "x=x" and "all numbers n have a successor number S(n) such that m=n if and only if S(m)=S(n)". Even if it seems clear (to most of us, at least) that these axioms represent some part of reality, they are still human-chosen -- and they have to be agreed upon. At some point, nearly everyone would have agreed that Euclid's 5th postulate was obviously true, and anyone alive could verify this for themself. Well, sometimes it's "true" and sometimes it isn't. That said, the Peano axioms seem less nebulous that the varying axioms relating to the existence of god, as that concept can change so much from person to person.
stevofolife 5y ago
That's a very shallow statement. An isolated baby could derive simple math but also similarly deduce there is a greater entity out there.
- ttfkam 5y ago
  Yes, but the stories and abilities regarding that greater entity will be as varied and inconsistent as those found all over the world. And most importantly will not be the same as any of them. How many wildly different stories are there regarding the creation of the world? Whereas the axioms of math will be substantially similar to the point that any modern mathematician would recognize it. We see this on ancient tablets where folks were calculating the square root of 2. Or any of the cultures all around the world that had no significant contact with one another that deal with pi. Sure we'll see base-12 number systems as with the Babylonians or base-20 as with the Maya, but the underlying principles and lessons are largely IDENTICAL. The worlds of math and the metaphysical could not be more different in that regard. Rather than being a very shallow statement, it is one of the most all-encompassing and profound in all of human history. It gave rise to the principles of the scientific method: humans are biased, so multiple people performing the same steps should come to the same results and predictions made based on those results should yield their own repeatable consistent results.
- Haiatu 5y ago
  Funny enough we discuss in such religious discussions often being religious vs. not being and ignoring the huge difference of existing religons. I had a discussion about this topic with a more hard core christian: I said 'look if it is a good god, it doesn't even matter if i worship her right?' and he said 'nope, its written that you have to worshop'. So one believe doesn't equal to another believe. Your underlying base changes based on your believe. "An axiom, postulate or assumption is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments." this is not true for two religions being created independently from each other while this is very well true for science.

by Haiatu 5y ago

mensetmanusman 5y ago

Math is based on human chosen axioms. Actually, there are a lot of different sub fields of math that have different subsets of axioms to solve different types of problems. The axioms can never be proven though, they are just grounding. Isolating a human is analogous to removing oxygen. Few would argue that someone brain dead could create anything.

Haiatu 5y ago
I'm really not sure how you can missread my example to come up with 'isoalting a human is analogous to removing oxygen'. My comparison is based on sciencse vs. fiction. 1+1 = 2 is a reality which works in german, africa, usa and everywhere else. There might be a difference on how those symbols (1, 2...) look like but the axiom is true and valid and is discoverable. In religion its not. Concept of god exists but it looks different depending on your believe. Multiply gods, one god, good god, bad god... Even the stuff written down is based on someone who wrote it down and still people interpretate it totally different. Never seen someone implying they are right that 1+1=3 if the interpretation of 3 is not 'next after one'.
- mahogany 5y ago
  1+1=2 is not really an axiom. There's a set of axioms that lead to that. They are even more primordial statements like "1 is a number" and "x=x" and "all numbers n have a successor number S(n) such that m=n if and only if S(m)=S(n)". Even if it seems clear (to most of us, at least) that these axioms represent some part of reality, they are still human-chosen -- and they have to be agreed upon. At some point, nearly everyone would have agreed that Euclid's 5th postulate was obviously true, and anyone alive could verify this for themself. Well, sometimes it's "true" and sometimes it isn't. That said, the Peano axioms seem less nebulous that the varying axioms relating to the existence of god, as that concept can change so much from person to person.

stevofolife 5y ago

That's a very shallow statement. An isolated baby could derive simple math but also similarly deduce there is a greater entity out there.

ttfkam 5y ago
Yes, but the stories and abilities regarding that greater entity will be as varied and inconsistent as those found all over the world. And most importantly will not be the same as any of them. How many wildly different stories are there regarding the creation of the world? Whereas the axioms of math will be substantially similar to the point that any modern mathematician would recognize it. We see this on ancient tablets where folks were calculating the square root of 2. Or any of the cultures all around the world that had no significant contact with one another that deal with pi. Sure we'll see base-12 number systems as with the Babylonians or base-20 as with the Maya, but the underlying principles and lessons are largely IDENTICAL. The worlds of math and the metaphysical could not be more different in that regard. Rather than being a very shallow statement, it is one of the most all-encompassing and profound in all of human history. It gave rise to the principles of the scientific method: humans are biased, so multiple people performing the same steps should come to the same results and predictions made based on those results should yield their own repeatable consistent results.
Haiatu 5y ago
Funny enough we discuss in such religious discussions often being religious vs. not being and ignoring the huge difference of existing religons. I had a discussion about this topic with a more hard core christian: I said 'look if it is a good god, it doesn't even matter if i worship her right?' and he said 'nope, its written that you have to worshop'. So one believe doesn't equal to another believe. Your underlying base changes based on your believe. "An axiom, postulate or assumption is a statement that is taken to be true, to serve as a premise or starting point for further reasoning and arguments." this is not true for two religions being created independently from each other while this is very well true for science.