5 ms·

Basilicata (the region where this village is) never ceases to amaze me. Also of note is Matera [1], one of the oldest continually inhabited towns in the world,

Basilicata (the region where this village is) never ceases to amaze me. Also of note is Matera [1], one of the oldest continually inhabited towns in the world, and a place where some people lived in caves until 1952. Basilicata is also one of the least accessible regions in Italy--I wonder if it's for the better or for the worst. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matera https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matera

fxtentacle 5y ago
Probably for the better. When I first visited Florence in 1996 people where happy to talk to us. When I visited again in 2018 everyone was exhausted by the constant flood of what they call "newly rich Chinese". Newly rich for them meant that they don't have the behavior usually associated with wealthy westerners. https://www.businessinsider.com/china-is-embarrassed-by-its-tourists-2013-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/china-is-embarrassed-by-its-... It's kind of culture shock because in some areas in Asia it is considered OK to just let your kids pee on the street. But with historic sandstone in Italy, the locals obviously hate that. When I tried to revisit Venice in 2018, they had deployed military for crowd control and were actively advising against visiting it My favorite places in Italy don't have a highway connection and they have aged well. The tourist hotspots have not.
- toyg 5y ago
  > Probably for the better. You say that because you're not actually living there. Basilicata has always been desperately poor, and the Lucania region even more so. My grandfather left it in the '50s, when even moderately well-off families like his (who owned houses and land) still did not have in-house running water. Today is still topping all the wrong charts among Italian regions, and people still have to leave unless they want to work in tourism (and even there, only if they live in well-known places like Matera). Like Abruzzo or Calabria, it looks nice and folksy when you visit a week or two a year. If you had to spend months or years over there, you'd likely get pissed off pretty quickly. Among other things, organised crime is a massive issue. > in some areas in Asia it is considered OK to just let your kids pee on the street. But with historic sandstone in Italy, the locals obviously hate that. Rationalization. When I was growing up in Italy in the '80s, peeing against houses was considered a bit rude but somewhat normal in a pinch. Gentrification and improvement in education standards have resulted in progress, reducing this kind of behavior in the wealthiest areas (which undoubtedly central Firenze is). That's all it is. (I'm not denying that the locals are annoyed by tourists doing it, I'm just saying it's just classic double standards and love-hate relationship with that industry.)
  - Red_Tarsius 5y ago
    >peeing against houses was considered a bit rude but somewhat normal in a pinch. I find that statement misleading. No, peeing against houses was/is not a socially accepted behaviour in Italy, at least not where I lived. Normal implies some degree of acceptance. You can receive a hefty fine for indecent behavior and people don't react well when drunk rowdy students "tag" their turf.
    - C-x_C-f 5y ago
      To be fair I grew up in a northern Italian town (~5 000 people) in the 00's and we had a few "peeing spots," usually windowless (north) walls of old houses in the historical center. We rarely peed there--as the GP put it, we only did when "in a pinch." Coincidentally, toilets in old houses there were really just small rooms jutting out of the northern part of the building that had a hole at the bottom where the waste would just plop down into the soil. Maybe that's where the habit started? Also the only time somebody got fined for peeing was when one of the local troublemakers peed on a prominent flagpole in the middle of the day--it made it into the local newspaper's locandina :)
    - toyg 5y ago
      I said "somewhat normal", "a bit rude", and "in the '80s". I could bet you a billion old Lira that, if you went to a periferia today and asked around, you'd find that it still happens. Obviously it won't happen in gentrified areas and touristic city centres, where I'm sure the municipale (or whatever they're called today in this or that region) is focused on maintaining the honor and decoro of the city. But in the areas nobody really cares about? For sure.
    - grokys 5y ago
      When I first arrived in Bologna ten years ago, I vividly remember an old man at the side of a main road peeing into the bushes.
      - toyg 5y ago
        In Centrale o in Bolognina? "Fun" areas... I grew up in what was then called la Pescarola (Zanardi / Marco Polo / Agucchi).
- jaclaz 5y ago
  Only for the record, and speaking of Florence, the issue is not only the Chinese tourists specifically, the problem of tourists showing ignorance, bad habits and impoliteness is pan-continental and is only exacerbated by the (large) numbers of such visitors. And personally I wouldn't be so "kind" towards wealthy westerners (including some Italians), they are often among the worst offenders, there is seemingly a sub-culture that make them think that a holiday in Florence is similar to what (as represented in movies/tv series) could be a spring-break in Miami, in certain areas of the city streets at night are often populated by drunk people partying till dawn with all the obvious consequences in terms of noise, litter, pee, vomit, etc..
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
inciampati 5y ago
Basilicata is one of the more remote regions of Italy and southern Europe in general. The landscape is varied and active agriculturally, but incredibly desolate. A major feature are hilltop towns that have been continuously inhabited since the neolithic. They are like islands in a vast sea of semi-wild fields and forests. Matera stands out in how impressively hidden and defensible it is. I sassi (the cave homes of the old city) sit over a an overhanging cliff above a deep gorge, hidden from view in every direction. Old Maratea was hidden almost a thousand meters up above the sea to escape the view of roving pirates. The people, culture, and food are sublime, quirky, and earthy. Kindness and the echos of ancient Hellenic hospitality reign supreme. Unlike many parts of the south of Italy, the mafia has little hold on daily life. Honest, open community comes first. I wasn't born there, but I am a convert and resident. Can't say enough good things about this remote world.

fxtentacle 5y ago

Probably for the better. When I first visited Florence in 1996 people where happy to talk to us. When I visited again in 2018 everyone was exhausted by the constant flood of what they call "newly rich Chinese". Newly rich for them meant that they don't have the behavior usually associated with wealthy westerners. https://www.businessinsider.com/china-is-embarrassed-by-its-tourists-2013-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/china-is-embarrassed-by-its-... It's kind of culture shock because in some areas in Asia it is considered OK to just let your kids pee on the street. But with historic sandstone in Italy, the locals obviously hate that. When I tried to revisit Venice in 2018, they had deployed military for crowd control and were actively advising against visiting it My favorite places in Italy don't have a highway connection and they have aged well. The tourist hotspots have not.

toyg 5y ago
> Probably for the better. You say that because you're not actually living there. Basilicata has always been desperately poor, and the Lucania region even more so. My grandfather left it in the '50s, when even moderately well-off families like his (who owned houses and land) still did not have in-house running water. Today is still topping all the wrong charts among Italian regions, and people still have to leave unless they want to work in tourism (and even there, only if they live in well-known places like Matera). Like Abruzzo or Calabria, it looks nice and folksy when you visit a week or two a year. If you had to spend months or years over there, you'd likely get pissed off pretty quickly. Among other things, organised crime is a massive issue. > in some areas in Asia it is considered OK to just let your kids pee on the street. But with historic sandstone in Italy, the locals obviously hate that. Rationalization. When I was growing up in Italy in the '80s, peeing against houses was considered a bit rude but somewhat normal in a pinch. Gentrification and improvement in education standards have resulted in progress, reducing this kind of behavior in the wealthiest areas (which undoubtedly central Firenze is). That's all it is. (I'm not denying that the locals are annoyed by tourists doing it, I'm just saying it's just classic double standards and love-hate relationship with that industry.)
- Red_Tarsius 5y ago
  >peeing against houses was considered a bit rude but somewhat normal in a pinch. I find that statement misleading. No, peeing against houses was/is not a socially accepted behaviour in Italy, at least not where I lived. Normal implies some degree of acceptance. You can receive a hefty fine for indecent behavior and people don't react well when drunk rowdy students "tag" their turf.
  - C-x_C-f 5y ago
    To be fair I grew up in a northern Italian town (~5 000 people) in the 00's and we had a few "peeing spots," usually windowless (north) walls of old houses in the historical center. We rarely peed there--as the GP put it, we only did when "in a pinch." Coincidentally, toilets in old houses there were really just small rooms jutting out of the northern part of the building that had a hole at the bottom where the waste would just plop down into the soil. Maybe that's where the habit started? Also the only time somebody got fined for peeing was when one of the local troublemakers peed on a prominent flagpole in the middle of the day--it made it into the local newspaper's locandina :)
  - toyg 5y ago
    I said "somewhat normal", "a bit rude", and "in the '80s". I could bet you a billion old Lira that, if you went to a periferia today and asked around, you'd find that it still happens. Obviously it won't happen in gentrified areas and touristic city centres, where I'm sure the municipale (or whatever they're called today in this or that region) is focused on maintaining the honor and decoro of the city. But in the areas nobody really cares about? For sure.
  - grokys 5y ago
    When I first arrived in Bologna ten years ago, I vividly remember an old man at the side of a main road peeing into the bushes.
    - toyg 5y ago
      In Centrale o in Bolognina? "Fun" areas... I grew up in what was then called la Pescarola (Zanardi / Marco Polo / Agucchi).
jaclaz 5y ago
Only for the record, and speaking of Florence, the issue is not only the Chinese tourists specifically, the problem of tourists showing ignorance, bad habits and impoliteness is pan-continental and is only exacerbated by the (large) numbers of such visitors. And personally I wouldn't be so "kind" towards wealthy westerners (including some Italians), they are often among the worst offenders, there is seemingly a sub-culture that make them think that a holiday in Florence is similar to what (as represented in movies/tv series) could be a spring-break in Miami, in certain areas of the city streets at night are often populated by drunk people partying till dawn with all the obvious consequences in terms of noise, litter, pee, vomit, etc..
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

inciampati 5y ago

Basilicata is one of the more remote regions of Italy and southern Europe in general. The landscape is varied and active agriculturally, but incredibly desolate. A major feature are hilltop towns that have been continuously inhabited since the neolithic. They are like islands in a vast sea of semi-wild fields and forests. Matera stands out in how impressively hidden and defensible it is. I sassi (the cave homes of the old city) sit over a an overhanging cliff above a deep gorge, hidden from view in every direction. Old Maratea was hidden almost a thousand meters up above the sea to escape the view of roving pirates. The people, culture, and food are sublime, quirky, and earthy. Kindness and the echos of ancient Hellenic hospitality reign supreme. Unlike many parts of the south of Italy, the mafia has little hold on daily life. Honest, open community comes first. I wasn't born there, but I am a convert and resident. Can't say enough good things about this remote world.