18 ms·

Noah Kagan and the Faceless Bitch slide

168 points by pw 15y ago

jerryr 15y ago
This is worth a read for anyone presenting: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents I won't go so far as to condone the OPs actions, but I can understand why women in tech might be at a breaking point.
pw 15y ago
For those who attended MicroConf, this post is by Anne Gunn, the woman who threw back the bottle of hot sauce during Kagan's presentation. Unfortunately, it didn't quite make it and landed on some audience members. EDIT: For clarity. (Anne wasn't trying to hit Kagan. She was just trying to return the bottle the same way Kagan had been distributing them.)
- tomjen3 15y ago
  So now posting a (to some people) offensive picture on a slide means that it is okay to physically attack (or attempt to) other people? If I even get to make a presentation in such a place, and fill it with Nazi symbols I may be asked to go (or the attendents might leave) but I am not going to be physically attacked for it. Yet bitch never killed anyone.
  - JonnieCache 15y ago
    Yeah, OP, I agree with all your points, the fact that you responded violently kinda undermines the whole thing. Throwing glass around could have gone really badly as well. You acknowledge that it would have been better to calmly walk out, but this seems in your mind to be rather a matter of style and grace, rather than the fatal loss of the moral high ground that it is. Physical violence is worse than sexist language, full stop. But yeah, as I say, I agree with you. This kinda shit is what makes me puts me off the whole tech scene and makes me glad that I'm kind of an outsider at the moment. That and the fact that if I'd been there I'd probably have been tempted to shout "FOOD FIGHT!" EDIT: I see that it was plastic, not glass. Still, play nice children.
    - michael_dorfman 15y ago
      It's clear from the OP that the intention was not violent, but rather, to toss the bottle back in the way that Kagan was tossing them to the audience. In other words, the primary error in judgment was one of distance and trajectory, not malicious intent.
      - jawns 15y ago
        Yeah, but in the case where Kagan was tossing them to the audience, I'm assuming he gave them some indication that he was about to hurl something at them so they'd be ready to catch it. Did the OP give Kagan the same heads up?
        frankdenbow 15y ago
        The point of the hotsauce was that Noah was rewarding people who asked good questions. She didnt warn anyone that she was throwing it back, i just heard a big thud and saw hotsauce everywhere. As was said earlier, it was more an error in trajectory and force than malice.
      - deleted 15y ago
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      - ovi256 15y ago
        Because there's no way and it's never been done to disguise malicious intent as incompetence or error of judgement.
      - chc 15y ago
        And it seems pretty clear as well that Noah didn't mean to offend her with the slide. People are mad at him for the effect his presentation had. There's hardly enough evidence to establish malice on his part — much less than on Anne's, since at least she was admittedly angry when she threw the sauce. Both actions were ill-considered.
  - econgeeker 15y ago
    If that was a physical attack, then all the bottles kagen threw into the audience were also physical attacks. Frankly, it would have been a better outcome if kagen had gotten beamed in the head with the bottle. In that case, at least, innocent bystanders wouldn't have had to deal with hot sauce.
  - rmc 15y ago
    They didn't attack anyone. If you view it as an attack, then you must conceed that they were attacked first, since the speaker was throwing bottles to the audience.
- Wilbur 15y ago
  She throws like a girl!
deleted 15y ago
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peteforde 15y ago
This is a sad story. I'm really genuinely bothered when I hear about guys that persist in thinking that this sort of presentation is cool or appropriate. I am sorry that you're upset about it, and I feel badly for the event organizer. This is the part that people will remember, not all of the amazing stuff. Conference organizing is surprisingly thankless. That said, you have to admit that the hot sauce aspect of this story is really funny. What the heck did you hope to accomplish? If you'd actually hit him, he'd be legally entitled to press charges. Did you end up apologizing to the attendees that got splashed, or offer to cover the cleaning bill for the conference organizer? Sexism on stage or not, if you'd hit my shirt and my computer, I'd be pissed off.
wyclif 15y ago
The OP does not seem to realise that the "girlfriend" comment from Kagan could have been a joke.
- LaGrange 15y ago
  So? The point is, not all jokes are appropriate. Some are offensive. Some jokes are just a lead-in to violence. Some just work to belittle people, little by little. So, yeah, the "ex-girlfriend is a bitch" joke should be ostracized.
  - wyclif 15y ago
    This was a conference talk, not workplace speech. Methinks you protest too much. I don't want my conference content modded by the speech police, thanks very much.
    - praptak 15y ago
      "This was a conference talk, not workplace speech." So? Both are public, a conference talk even more so. Make your speech offensive, expect people to react. "I don't want my conference content modded by the speech police, thanks very much." Someone's calling out rude behavior -> cry speech police. A little bit on the strawman side if you ask me. This guy wasn't censored, wasn't forcibly removed from the conference. The only consequence of his "joke" was someone expressing their disgust.
      - wyclif 15y ago
        The only consequence of his "joke" was someone expressing their disgust. Right. Which is just shorthand for saying, "tomorrow morning nobody is going to remember this." People will just move on to the next outrage. If you don't think the speech is politically correct enough, stop attending the conference.
    - LaGrange 15y ago
      "I don't want my conference content modded by the speech police, thanks very much." I think Stewart Lee says this much better than I would: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGAOCVwLrXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGAOCVwLrXo
verdum 15y ago
I've dealt with Kagan in the past and without going into too much detail, had a very negative impression. A shameless self promoter, who gave off the impression that he had no integrity.
- red_dawn 15y ago
  I hate to create a throw away account for this, but I've had the same experience as you. I got the impression Noah was mostly a kid who is good at hustling, but with no ethical framework to support him. The recent email in which the readers were lead into thinking Tim Ferriss was involved, is just one example of his professional standards. To his credit, his customer support can be very good and prompt.
- candyland 15y ago
  I'd never work with him again for these very reasons, and I've spoken with several people from his different companies who agree. While throwing hot sauce is never a constructive way to express your opinions, I think the author seriously over-estimated Noah's prestige in the valley.
econgeeker 15y ago
New Rule: If you're going to show a sexy, naked, or scantily clad woman in a slide, you damn well better be making a self deprecating joke. If you show a derogatory slide about an innocent bystander (such as an ex-girlfriend) whatever you say about them is a reflection on you, not them. (Of course, making fun of your legitimate competition is always a risk, as well.)
- LaGrange 15y ago
  New rule: if a presenter shows a sexy, naked or scantily clad woman in a slide, and tries to justify themselves by making a self-deprecating joke, the audience is supposed to say "oh yes you are", spray them with hot sauce, and leave.
  - khafra 15y ago
    Could it be justified by a similar picture of opposite gender on the next slide?
    - LaGrange 15y ago
      No.
      - seabee 15y ago
        Certainly not without two bottles of hot sauce, anyway.
  - Tichy 15y ago
    What if it is a conference of the porn industry? Or even just the fashion industry?
    - LaGrange 15y ago
      I have special place in my black dead heart for porn and fashion industry. But you could point out eg. an anti-violence or feminist conference. I doubt there would be any self-derogatory comments in those cases, though.
cipherpunk 15y ago
Oh for crying out loud. Someone got angry at a picture of an ex-girlfriend with "bitch" on her face -- WHY? It might be a bit distasteful, but what the fucking hell is offensive about it unless you were the ex? If I put a photo up of my ex-boss and it had the word "cock" on his face would males in the crowd start getting really offended and start throwing bottles at stage? If so, I think the problem is in the audience. This has nothing to do with sexism.
- LaGrange 15y ago
  Oh my god. You are joking, right? You're actually getting it, but trying to portray a kind of disgusting sexist male that would say that? The slide is offensive, because it relates to objectification of women. It's just that. It would be hard to explain it to you, and, actually, the only reason you don't get it is because you don't want to get it, so I won't even bother for your sake. But, like, I don't think things like what you said should be left without an answer, because some innocent might stumble upon them and think no one objects. It's because of the way women are treated. It's because of the prevalence of violence and rape. It's because a dude probably won't be battered and raped due to him being an ex, but it's something that happens to women all the time. It's something that's hard to grasp for most dudes, including you. It does relate to a form of violence/abuse, and only way you can reject that is by being intentionally obtuse. Oh, and if he put up his previous boss face with the word "cock" on it, he would stand a serious chance of being fired. He put up his ex's (or just random woman's, still relevant) photo with a word "bitch" on it and he still has a job. And the job lets him speak publicly. What. The. Hell.
  - deleted 15y ago
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  - Tichy 15y ago
    I think it is inappropriate to call people names in public. But to be honest your rant is a bit over the top in my mind. It's not objectification, rape, slavery or whatever. It was just somebody calling somebody else names in public. ("Cock" on the boss picture would be just as inappropriate).
BasDirks 15y ago
I'm sorry to say, but I agree that Kagan's a total douche, both for this and previous remarks online. The amount of posts about sexism is starting to annoy the hell out of me, but it does deserve attention.
- yanowitz 15y ago
  I find the actual sexism far more annoying than the posts about it.
  - BasDirks 15y ago
    Certainly, that's what I meant to say.
- jarin 15y ago
  It's ok to call him a "douche" though. (Not defending him, just pointing out the irony)
  - kadavy 15y ago
    I came here to say this. Why do we use this word? I prefer the word "database" to "douchebag."
  - eli 15y ago
    Well, for one thing, the context is entirely different. I told my coworker he was being a moron last week at happy hour. However, it would be entirely inappropriate if I added a slide about how he's a moron to my next conference slide deck.
- kareemm 15y ago
  I find it ironic where in a community that's so aggressive about how anecdotes don't equal data there are members who draw conclusions about a person and holler them from the rooftops based on a few random stories on the internet. Noah's a great guy (and a personal friend) who made a joke that didn't go over well. Was it in poor taste? Possibly. But let's get some perspective here before judging others and remember that everybody makes mistakes. You probably were lucky enough not to make them in such a public forum, where random people would holler words like "sexist" and "douche" at you from across the internet.
w1ntermute 15y ago
Much like with Matt Aimonetti's "CouchDB: Perform like a pr0n star" presentation[0], the male-dominated nature of the tech industry sadly often makes men think that it's acceptable to say and do sexist things at industry conferences. It's already hard enough to get women into technology, and things like this only make it even harder. 0: http://omploader.org/vNWNrNg/gogaruco-couchdb-090418194027-phpapp02.pdf http://omploader.org/vNWNrNg/gogaruco-couchdb-090418194027-p...
- mikemaccana 15y ago
  My standard for sexism is: would it be OK to do it if the situations were reversed? So imagine a woman on stage, picture of some dude with a blot over his face and 'BASTARD' written on it. - Sexist? Not sure it would indicate the speaker hates all men per se, just this one. - But lame, like the speaker couldn't control themselves over their anger at someone and had to bring it on stage for some kind of pathetic vindication? Sure. I'd advise not doing this not because it's sexist, but because it makes the speaker look like an angry, sad individual. PS. If the hot sauce was glass, that's obviously even worse. Lesson: stupid drama (like throwing some ex girlfriend on an unrelated talk) invites more stupid drama (like throwing bottles at someone rather than using words as a first resort).
  - jnovek 15y ago
    "My standard for sexism is: would it be OK to do it if the situations were reversed?" This might not actually be a good test because, as a society, we have different social standards for men and women. While Kagan's actions could be considered "masculine", most likely if a woman did something similar it would be considered "bitchy". Because we use different words and standards, it's really hard to truly reverse the situation. By the way, your example indicates that you're confusing sexism and misogyny -- you could debate whether his position is misogynistic (expresses a hatred for women) but it seems fairly likely that it's sexist (makes some women feel uncomfortable in a situation because of their gender).
    - Tichy 15y ago
petercooper 15y ago
Some rather passive aggressive writing in there attempting to belittle Kagan (who I suspect couldn't care less). But this stood out to me as an indicator of the poster's disdain: "Apparently, in the small but influential industry of high tech companies and service providers who cater to high tech startup companies (yes, I’m serious, there is such an industry), Noah Kagan is a bit of a rock star." Yeah, there is such an industry, but the faux incredulity only serves to weaken the other points made.
- Duff 15y ago
  The ironic thing is that the passive/aggressive style reflects more poorly on the author. It sounds like a public justification about throwing the hot sauce and soaking people. I know nothing about Kagan, except that he sounds like a self-promoter who values name recognition above all else. So whomever wrote this screed was successful at: A - Demonstrating to the world that she is an immature, passive-aggressive type and B - Letting me know who Noah Kagan, a man I have never heard of, is. Who "won" here?
davidandgoliath 15y ago
Curious, if the speaker were female, and had a slide where she had 'asshole' written over some guy's face (Let's use Noah's as an example), would there be a similar level of outrage? As much as it was obviously distasteful no matter the context, I'd find having to listen to him for a half hour more offensive than the image -- worse, knowing I had paid to attend a conference to listen to said drivel.
- rwolf 15y ago
  This question presumes equality in other ways of our treatment of female presenters. You have changed more than one variable.
look_lookatme 15y ago
His slide was offensive and doesn't belong at a conference, but neither does petulant behavior such as throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the speaker in the middle of his or her presentation.
- michael_dorfman 15y ago
  But the OP made it very clear that her act was not "throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the speaker in the middle of his or her presentation."
  - davidandgoliath 15y ago
    She was clearly throwing it at the other attendees.
  - jerrya 15y ago
    OP mansplained that her act was not "throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the speaker in the middle of his or her presentation." Regardless of her mansplanation, in fact her act was "throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the speaker in the middle of his or her presentation." Imagine you're the principal of a middle school and you heard what happened in the auditorium. Are you going to give both kids detention, neither kids, detention, or one kid (which one?) detention?
derfclausen 15y ago
Opportunists tend to objectify many things.
Vivtek 15y ago
I read the entire thing thinking OP was male. It perplexed me why Kagan responded with a curt "No" when asked whether he wanted to understand the episode. Then I saw from the first comment that OP's name is Anne - and suddenly saw why Kagan had been a jerk with her.
- Vivtek 15y ago
  Also, reading through comments here, the issue of sexism really turns this crowd ugly.
  - jdp23 15y ago
    Indeed. That tends to happen on HN. It seems to me, though, that there are now more posts from people who actually do get it. It's too bad we can't see the voting to know the relative popularity of the various posts...
- k33n 15y ago
  If someone threw a bottle of hot sauce at me during a high pressure situation, I wouldn't care at all about what they have to say to me. If she had approached him respectfully, without an unprovoked physical attack, he would have responded much differently.
  - Vivtek 15y ago
    Maybe. I see nothing to support that hypothesis here, but if it makes you feel better, then by all means.
    - deleted 15y ago
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  - jtheory 15y ago
    See the comment above from someone who was sitting near her; she was trying to toss it back up to the stage to return it to him (and tried to get his attention so he could catch it) but it didn't work out. She also gave every indication of being mortified when the bottle burst and splattered people. She certainly wasn't trying to bean Noah in the head with it, and I don't get the impression he would have thought that either.
rmc 15y ago
As a tangent, what would be the gender neutral equivalent of "Bitch"? The male equivalent would be "bastard".
- fiblye 15y ago
  "Jackass", most likely.
- dkarl 15y ago
  There isn't one. By the literal meaning, it would be "dog", which used to be a common insult, if literature is any guide, but which has fallen out of use. "Bitch" implies malice and viciousness, shallow in thought but deeply ingrained. And, of course, it implies unwomanliness, and it doesn't make sense to accuse a man of unwomanliness. The disturbing thing with insults is that even today, they're mostly used in gender-specific ways. Even the ones that don't seem gender-specific, such as "jerk", are rarely applied to women. That's sexism in itself -- when we want to insult a woman, instead of reaching for a word that communicates exactly what we feel, we fall back on the generic "bitch" because her gender seems to have something to do with her transgression. There are so many words to choose from that communicate exactly what's wrong with someone: jerk, liar, pig, dumbass, worm, bastard, loudmouth, traitor. It should feel just as right and satisfying to apply them to a woman as to a man. But in the heat of the moment, your aggression amplifies every negative feeling, including your sexism, and you watch to lash out at that bitch. Better control yourself, though. When you call someone a "bitch", it sounds like you think what they've done was inappropriate for a woman. I.e., maybe it would have been fine if she was a man. Now you've got everyone wondering how you feel about women instead of thinking about what she's done to earn your enmity. So next time you want to lash out verbally at a woman, choose your words carefully. Is she an idiot? A jerk? A dick? (Hmmm, maybe there's a better word for that.) Let's let "bitch" go the way of "harpy" and "harridan". When you hear those words, you don't really trust them, because they give away the fact that the speaker is holding their target to a sexist standard of femininity. Somehow "bitch" survived as our only remaining insult for women (except "whore", "slut", and all the other words that mean "woman who makes me feel bad by having sex with men who aren't me".) Well, there's "cunt", but that's mostly a Briticism, and it's just as lazy and meaningless as "bitch". There are so many ways to give your listener a vivid image of your target instead of have them wondering about your misogyny. You could call someone mealy-mouthed, two-faced, greedy, ruthless, petty, malicious, mercenary, or disloyal. (When a woman's sexual behavior disturbs you, try "dishonest": if that doesn't apply, then she probably isn't doing anything wrong.) Not only will you seem much more composed, serious, and credible than if you resorted to "bitch", not only will you leave your listeners with a more vivid and convincing image of your target, it's also much more efficient, since you'll be using the same store of insults for both men and women. And as hackers we should always be using the most abstract solution. (Of course, if you really want it to hurt, then sexism never hurts. Or rather, it always hurts. But when you're playing to an audience, malice undermines your credibility.)
frankdenbow 15y ago
(I was the guy in front scraping hot sauce off my computer/bag/clothes after you threw the bottle up front) Totally understand why you would be offended by the slide. Noah is a bit edgier than most, and he was likely going for entertainment value. It was not in the best taste to do it. From what I know of Noah Kagan, he seems to be a good guy that goes out of his way to help people in the scene. If all you got out of his talk was to type faster, I think you missed out on a lot. There are lots of great points that were made that may have been lost in presentation for you. Also not sure if he fully understood why you wanted to explain why you threw the bottle, but I'll let him defend himself on that. I'm all for being upfront and honest about things (sort of what my last post was about [0]) so its good to have these things out there. Its much more effective than throwing hotsauce at innocent bystanders :-) 0: http://frankdenbow.tumblr.com/post/7269203638/on-honesty-in-startupland http://frankdenbow.tumblr.com/post/7269203638/on-honesty-in-...
- pradocchia 15y ago
  Noah is a bit edgier than most At this point, if anyone ever described me as "edgy", I'd be aghast.
  - deleted 15y ago
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- edash 15y ago
  I didn't get hot sauce on me and I wasn't at MicroConf — but I will defend Noah. I've met him on several occasions and he's been friendly and helpful. He also gives time and energy to many people and projects without wanting anything in return. I'm not defending his presentation; that slide offends me too. But I know that he deserves better than to wake up seeing this on the front page of Hacker News. The author could have used the slide as a jumping off point for greater issues like gender equality in tech, or the pros and cons of being offensive in a presentation, or even a discussion about the word "bitch". Any of those topics would have forwarded the point more than writing a long ad hominem attack on someone who surely didn't intend to hurt or offend anyone personally.
lxmorj 15y ago
Thoughts: -She threw the bottle and it landed halfway. Was it an inaccurate assessment of Noah to assume she might not catch it? Looks like she proved him right in that regard, at least. -The picture wasn't 'scantily clad' or derogatory, and was unidentifiable. There is a fair chance it wasn't even a picture of an ex. -There was some context, albeit I believe the main point was to keep people awake. 6 hours of speakers is a lot. -Maybe I'm thinking too much into it, but I'm fairly sure 'type faster' was analogous to 'little shit can add up'. -I've always considered 'bitch' to be a female specific version of 'dick'. Both being fairly synonymous with 'asshole'. -She very much objectively f'ed up some of Frank's things. I was sitting between them and the bottle flew directly over my head. It is kind of a joke to get mad at someone's immaturity and respond in-kind, damaging a bystanders property. Long story short- Noah is blunt. Maybe douchey. But throwing a tantrum and making a mess hardly gives you the higher ground.
- deleted 15y ago
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nateberkopec 15y ago
Whether or not we (the mostly male HN community) think it's "offensive" is beside the point. Are we going to encourage more women to get into tech if we call them "faceless bitches?" Does that create a welcoming atmosphere? I certainly don't think so. We sit back and wonder "gawrsh, why aren't there more women hackers/programmers/tech entrepreneurs?" This. This is why.
- citricsquid 15y ago
  I think above all this is why be a dick to anyone. Gender should not matter, a community where being a dick to someone else (nameless or not) is acceptable makes for a bad community.
- k33n 15y ago
  Would it have been appropriate for the speaker to display an image of a man with his face covered with a circled labeled "asshole" before saying "this is my old boss"? I'd be willing to wager that OP is simply an unhappy, angry person who enjoys playing the victim whenever possible. Nobody called her a bitch. Nobody called all women in tech bitches. If someone is so sensitive that one slide in a presentation would keep them out of our industry, it's safe to say we're better off without them. I've worked with plenty of women in tech and they're no different to me than my male colleagues.
peterwwillis 15y ago
Request: next time anyone writes about a sexist talk by a clueless startup rockstar, keep it to 5 paragraphs. I don't need to spend 20 minutes reading filler just to hear about Sriracha throwing and a slide of a guy's ex-girlfriend.
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monochromatic 15y ago
The faceless bitch slide? Maybe a little offensive and a touch douchey. But breaking a bottle of hot sauce on people and then writing this rant? Bitchy. Get over yourself.
andrewcooke 15y ago
i first asked for a while back, but i think we need it more and more: i would pay good money for a system that tracked people not as friends, but as arseholes. an application that correlates identities across sites and greys out their comments and the like. in "real life" i can pick my friends and drop the arseholes. online i have no idea who "Thom" (see comments on that article) might be, and no way of flagging that same user on, say stackoveflow, when they are asking for help. we need some way to make karma work better online. http://www.acooke.org/cute/Automatemy0.html http://www.acooke.org/cute/Automatemy0.html
- WingForward 15y ago
  iHate?
  - andrewcooke 15y ago
    well, more ithinkyouarenotveryniceandsoiwontplaywithyousothere or, perhaps better, ifyouwantmyrespectgrowthefuckupandearnit
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etruong42 15y ago
tl;dr the author attended MicroConf2011, enjoyed the overall experience, but disagreed with (aspects of) Noah Kagan's presentation and ended up throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the presenter. The rambling, ranting writing style removed all of the author's credibility in my eyes. The writing focused on the author's actions and feelings, rather than the facts of the day. The fact that the author threw a bottle of hot sauce does not help portray a level-headed narrator either. The author may be providing a legitimate case and outcry against sexism, but when the author reduces it to matter of their own ego and hurt feelings, I do not give it any credence.
- anishkothari 15y ago
  This reminds of the food fights in high school.
hadtocomment 15y ago
It occurs to me that OP might be more upset about receiving the bottle of hot sauce than she was about the images. Sure, the writhing woman and the bitch slide were offensive, but it wasn't until Kagan ostensibly attempted to marginalize her by rewarding her with the hot sauce that she really got angry. Money quote: "What I should have done was stand up, walk the bottle of hot sauce back up to the stage, point out to Noah Kagan that he had not earned the right to give ME a token of recognition..." That's really what this is all about: "boys being boys" and not acknowledging that there's anything wrong with it, despite obvious indications (like an audience member taking a photo of your offensive slide) that there is indeed something wrong with it.
lesterbuck 15y ago
I attended Microconf, and I sat on the third row aisle. Anne was sitting directly behind me. Thus, I had a ringside seat for the hot sauce incident. I am somewhat surprised to learn that Anne was enraged at the picture, as I was not detecting that at all. I need to work on that. I do specifically remember that Anne received the hot sauce and clearly did not want it, so she started pumping her arm preparing to return it. Alas, after three or four pumps, Noah had not noticed, and I figured she would return it otherwise. But suddenly it was released, without enough force to make it to the side of the stage where she was aiming. My impression at the time was that Anne was being playful in the same way as Noah, trying to give it back, but that was not what was going through Anne's head. If I had known she was so upset, I would have discussed it with her. As it was, I just thought it was a playful way to get into the flow of the talk that had backfired, and best not bring it up with her. As for Noah, I was looking forward to his Microconf talk, as I listen to most Mixergy interviews, and Noah is a huge resource for Andrew's recruiting new interviewees. It is interesting how Noah has briliant ideas but seems to have some impulse control. For example, sending underwear to people he wants to meet, to get their attention - brilliant! Showing his underwear during a Mixergy interview - a mistake. (Glad I was audio only there...) The faceless bitch was hardly the only sexual innuendo from Noah. He had had some blowback from his ASmartBear guest post recently, where he started a blog post in which he mentions, in passing, waking up next to his naked girlfriend. In his very first comments at Microconf, he brings up how everyone thought that blog post was about his sexual adventures, when of course it was about burnout. Except the out of place denial practically proves the rule - Noah is a very sexual guy, and it oozes from him. It almost defines him. Out of the 120 Microconf attendees, who brought their (very attractive) girlfriend? Only Noah Kagan. Who referred to his previous girlfriend as a bitch, live, in front of his current girlfriend? Noah Kagan. Some of these sexual references go over the line, and make tech conferences a hostile place for women. But I think sometimes we doth protest too much at one of the fundamental forces driving entrepreneurship, and that is sex. Napoleon Hill, writing in the 1930s, devoted an entire chapter to "The Mystery of Sex Transmutation", and how the most successful entrepreneurs can take the enormous energy available as the sex drive and convert it into useful work. Yes, the vague idea that we can win the hot chick will drive many, many long dark nights of building a company. I keep suggesting to Andrew Warner, our modern version of Napoleon Hill, to explore this powerful drive, and how successful entrepreneurs harness it to their advantage.
kadavy 15y ago
This is going to be a very biased comment because Noah is a close personal friend of mine. Noah will generally be the same guy while talking to your parents as he is having a beer with close friends: direct, open, and sometimes irreverent. This is shocking to many people in our (to use the author's term) "post-polite" society, but this is precisely why Noah is one of my favorite people in the world. When you're talking to Noah, you know that he will tell you exactly what he thinks, and he'll have fun doing it. I owe a tremendous portion of any success I've had to Noah. In addition to being a brilliant marketer, Noah has taught me to ask for forgiveness and not for permission - something every entrepreneur needs to be reminded of every once in awhile. He's always been a huge help to me. A mere 2-minute conversation with him can be pure gold, so it's a shame that the author was too upset to absorb what was (just positing - I wasn't there) probably a great presentation. On one hand, I personally would not have used "the bitch slide" in a presentation. There are not enough women in tech, and while I wouldn't compare the word "bitch" to a racial slur, it is just sexist enough to ensure that at least some of the few women who are in the audience will feel alienated when used within the context of a male-dominated conference. I'm sure that Noah doesn't really think that his ex-girlfriend is a bitch. His current girlfriend is the only serious relationship I've known him to have in the past 5 years, so he may have just made up this ex for the sake of joking. In actuality, Noah is one of the more emotionally mature and communicative people I've ever met, so he's perfectly capable of understanding that relationships are two-way streets. On the other hand, the hypersensitivity the author demonstrates is exactly the kind of buttoned-up bourgeois bullshit that made me want to work for myself. I want the freedom to be myself. Sexuality, relationships, and the ambivalence that comes from all of it are a part of being a human, and success in entrepreneurship is about as close as one can come to self-actualization (at least in America). The line: > the small but influential industry of high tech companies and service providers who cater to high tech startup companies (yes, I’m serious, there is such an industry) gives away that the author was clearly out of her element. This isn't the world of stodgy HR policies and training manuals. We make it up as we go along, we test the boundaries, and sometimes we make mistakes just to find out where those boundaries are. I'll be damned if a flame post and an errant Sriracha bottle is going to take that away from us.
- verdum 15y ago
jarin 15y ago
At the first Ignite San Diego, one presenter gave a talk comparing working in the tech industry with being a pick-up artist. I think it was pretty comparable to this presentation, but I remember the general opinion being more that it was more in extreme poor taste than straight-up offensive. I also remember thinking it was a little ironic how many people threw the word "douchebag" around afterward. Admittedly, I don't have quite the same perspective since I'm a man, but as a minority I try to imagine if someone used some word like "chink" or talked about "peeing in your Coke" in a presentation in an effort to be edgy. Unless it was said in a patently hateful way, I probably would think of the speaker as stupid rather than malicious. It's also possible that growing up in Hawaii (where ethnic jokes are socially acceptable, and generally made without malice) has made me take a "it's probably a joke unless proven otherwise" default reaction.
parfe 15y ago
Kagan's current girlfriend should be the one offended. If he's willing to call an ex a bitch she is in danger of him defaming her in a similar way if they split. And they seem to share a professional environment which could be detrimental to her career. Guys who publicly call exes bitches generally consider all exes "bitches" because of their self centered view of why the relationship failed. "No Cindy, you're special. My ex Jane was total bitch." "No Jane, you're special. My ex Stephanie was a total bitch." "No Stephanie you're special. My ex Anne was a total bitch." If he's capable of calling the ex a bitch in public he's capable of the same with his current girlfriend.
veastley 15y ago
I was sitting right in front of Anne at the conference, so I didn't see her throw the hot sauce, but I did see the bottle explode all over the stage and the people in front of me. My first response was to shut my MacBook Air. ;-) An awkward tension hung in the air like a big stink bomb once everyone realized what had just happened. Noah managed to brush off the incident and continue his talk as if nothing happened. I'm sure I couldn't have continued so coolly if I were in his place. I doubt any of us at the conference understand what was going through Anne's head at the time. I was confused by the whole incident, and figured she didn't want the hot sauce and was trying to playfully toss it back. As for Noah's presentation, I thought parts of it were very low-class and out of place. My opinion of him as a person was lower at the end of his talk. That said, I did gain some valuable insights that have helped me focus better and improve my business.
paolomaffei 15y ago
To me this sounds like a delirious rambling about someone who is embarassed to have thrown hot sauce on some people. I don't know who Noah Kagan is.
Perceval 15y ago
This reminds me of the kerfuffle over the Drunken Batman slide "Black People Don't Use Macs" http://www.flickr.com/photos/rtmfd/1097058025/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/rtmfd/1097058025/
deleted 15y ago
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irms 15y ago
I'll tell you, it's not so much the slide itself that that was upsetting -- although he was essentially begging for someone to say "orgasm" and that was a sad sight to see; the audience was way ahead of him and didn't want to partake -- but that he carried himself like a jerk, wanted people like him because he was a jerk, and ultimately had no message in his presentation. It was hard to watch, and not because I'm a woman, but because an hour is a long time to listen to someone talk excitedly about nothing.
agunn 15y ago
I'm late to this party. I hit Publish on my Noah Kagan post, headed off for some vacation, and came back to a week of getting product out the door. By the time I realized how much interest the piece had stirred up, I was thoroughly behind the curve. I didn't want to jump in till I'd had a chance to go through the whole thread, which I finally got to do yesterday. Don't worry; I'm not going to try to dredge this one up with responses to a lot of different comments, just one, I think. For anyone who might still have an ounce of interest, I did try to respond to some of the comments and questions that were, more or less, directed to me, over on my blog[0]. All I can say, from this my first real encounter with Hacker News, is, "Wow. This is a remarkable place. Such passion and energy, so much erudition, and so many flames." ag 0: http://sherprog.com/2011/07/24/kudos-regrets-apologies-lesson http://sherprog.com/2011/07/24/kudos-regrets-apologies-lesso...
agunn 15y ago
I'm late to this party. I hit Publish on my Noah Kagan post, headed off for some vacation, and came back to a week of getting product out the door. By the time I realized how much interest the piece had stirred up, I was thoroughly behind the curve. I didn't want to jump in till I'd had a chance to go through the whole thread, which I finally got to do yesterday. Don't worry; I'm not going to try to dredge this one up with responses to a lot of different comments, just one, I think. For anyone who might still have an ounce of interest, I did try to respond to some of the comments and questions that were, more or less, directed to me, over on my blog[0]. All I can say, from this my first real encounter with Hacker News, is, "Wow. This is a remarkable place. Such passion and energy, so much erudition, and so many flames." ag 0: http://sherprog.com/2011/07/24/kudos-regrets-apologies-lesson http://sherprog.com/2011/07/24/kudos-regrets-apologies-lesso...

168 points by pw 15y ago

This is worth a read for anyone presenting: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Incidents I won't go so far as to condone the OPs actions, but I can understand why women in tech might be at a breaking point.

pw 15y ago

For those who attended MicroConf, this post is by Anne Gunn, the woman who threw back the bottle of hot sauce during Kagan's presentation. Unfortunately, it didn't quite make it and landed on some audience members. EDIT: For clarity. (Anne wasn't trying to hit Kagan. She was just trying to return the bottle the same way Kagan had been distributing them.)

tomjen3 15y ago
So now posting a (to some people) offensive picture on a slide means that it is okay to physically attack (or attempt to) other people? If I even get to make a presentation in such a place, and fill it with Nazi symbols I may be asked to go (or the attendents might leave) but I am not going to be physically attacked for it. Yet bitch never killed anyone.
- JonnieCache 15y ago
  Yeah, OP, I agree with all your points, the fact that you responded violently kinda undermines the whole thing. Throwing glass around could have gone really badly as well. You acknowledge that it would have been better to calmly walk out, but this seems in your mind to be rather a matter of style and grace, rather than the fatal loss of the moral high ground that it is. Physical violence is worse than sexist language, full stop. But yeah, as I say, I agree with you. This kinda shit is what makes me puts me off the whole tech scene and makes me glad that I'm kind of an outsider at the moment. That and the fact that if I'd been there I'd probably have been tempted to shout "FOOD FIGHT!" EDIT: I see that it was plastic, not glass. Still, play nice children.
  - michael_dorfman 15y ago
    It's clear from the OP that the intention was not violent, but rather, to toss the bottle back in the way that Kagan was tossing them to the audience. In other words, the primary error in judgment was one of distance and trajectory, not malicious intent.
    - jawns 15y ago
      Yeah, but in the case where Kagan was tossing them to the audience, I'm assuming he gave them some indication that he was about to hurl something at them so they'd be ready to catch it. Did the OP give Kagan the same heads up?
      - frankdenbow 15y ago
        The point of the hotsauce was that Noah was rewarding people who asked good questions. She didnt warn anyone that she was throwing it back, i just heard a big thud and saw hotsauce everywhere. As was said earlier, it was more an error in trajectory and force than malice.
    - deleted 15y ago
      [deleted]
    - ovi256 15y ago
      Because there's no way and it's never been done to disguise malicious intent as incompetence or error of judgement.
    - chc 15y ago
      And it seems pretty clear as well that Noah didn't mean to offend her with the slide. People are mad at him for the effect his presentation had. There's hardly enough evidence to establish malice on his part — much less than on Anne's, since at least she was admittedly angry when she threw the sauce. Both actions were ill-considered.
- econgeeker 15y ago
  If that was a physical attack, then all the bottles kagen threw into the audience were also physical attacks. Frankly, it would have been a better outcome if kagen had gotten beamed in the head with the bottle. In that case, at least, innocent bystanders wouldn't have had to deal with hot sauce.
- rmc 15y ago
  They didn't attack anyone. If you view it as an attack, then you must conceed that they were attacked first, since the speaker was throwing bottles to the audience.
Wilbur 15y ago
She throws like a girl!

deleted 15y ago

[deleted]

peteforde 15y ago

This is a sad story. I'm really genuinely bothered when I hear about guys that persist in thinking that this sort of presentation is cool or appropriate. I am sorry that you're upset about it, and I feel badly for the event organizer. This is the part that people will remember, not all of the amazing stuff. Conference organizing is surprisingly thankless. That said, you have to admit that the hot sauce aspect of this story is really funny. What the heck did you hope to accomplish? If you'd actually hit him, he'd be legally entitled to press charges. Did you end up apologizing to the attendees that got splashed, or offer to cover the cleaning bill for the conference organizer? Sexism on stage or not, if you'd hit my shirt and my computer, I'd be pissed off.

wyclif 15y ago

The OP does not seem to realise that the "girlfriend" comment from Kagan could have been a joke.

LaGrange 15y ago
So? The point is, not all jokes are appropriate. Some are offensive. Some jokes are just a lead-in to violence. Some just work to belittle people, little by little. So, yeah, the "ex-girlfriend is a bitch" joke should be ostracized.
- wyclif 15y ago
  This was a conference talk, not workplace speech. Methinks you protest too much. I don't want my conference content modded by the speech police, thanks very much.
  - praptak 15y ago
    "This was a conference talk, not workplace speech." So? Both are public, a conference talk even more so. Make your speech offensive, expect people to react. "I don't want my conference content modded by the speech police, thanks very much." Someone's calling out rude behavior -> cry speech police. A little bit on the strawman side if you ask me. This guy wasn't censored, wasn't forcibly removed from the conference. The only consequence of his "joke" was someone expressing their disgust.
    - wyclif 15y ago
      The only consequence of his "joke" was someone expressing their disgust. Right. Which is just shorthand for saying, "tomorrow morning nobody is going to remember this." People will just move on to the next outrage. If you don't think the speech is politically correct enough, stop attending the conference.
  - LaGrange 15y ago
    "I don't want my conference content modded by the speech police, thanks very much." I think Stewart Lee says this much better than I would: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGAOCVwLrXo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGAOCVwLrXo

verdum 15y ago

I've dealt with Kagan in the past and without going into too much detail, had a very negative impression. A shameless self promoter, who gave off the impression that he had no integrity.

red_dawn 15y ago
I hate to create a throw away account for this, but I've had the same experience as you. I got the impression Noah was mostly a kid who is good at hustling, but with no ethical framework to support him. The recent email in which the readers were lead into thinking Tim Ferriss was involved, is just one example of his professional standards. To his credit, his customer support can be very good and prompt.
candyland 15y ago
I'd never work with him again for these very reasons, and I've spoken with several people from his different companies who agree. While throwing hot sauce is never a constructive way to express your opinions, I think the author seriously over-estimated Noah's prestige in the valley.

econgeeker 15y ago

New Rule: If you're going to show a sexy, naked, or scantily clad woman in a slide, you damn well better be making a self deprecating joke. If you show a derogatory slide about an innocent bystander (such as an ex-girlfriend) whatever you say about them is a reflection on you, not them. (Of course, making fun of your legitimate competition is always a risk, as well.)

LaGrange 15y ago
New rule: if a presenter shows a sexy, naked or scantily clad woman in a slide, and tries to justify themselves by making a self-deprecating joke, the audience is supposed to say "oh yes you are", spray them with hot sauce, and leave.
- khafra 15y ago
  Could it be justified by a similar picture of opposite gender on the next slide?
  - LaGrange 15y ago
    No.
    - seabee 15y ago
      Certainly not without two bottles of hot sauce, anyway.
- Tichy 15y ago
  What if it is a conference of the porn industry? Or even just the fashion industry?
  - LaGrange 15y ago
    I have special place in my black dead heart for porn and fashion industry. But you could point out eg. an anti-violence or feminist conference. I doubt there would be any self-derogatory comments in those cases, though.

cipherpunk 15y ago

Oh for crying out loud. Someone got angry at a picture of an ex-girlfriend with "bitch" on her face -- WHY? It might be a bit distasteful, but what the fucking hell is offensive about it unless you were the ex? If I put a photo up of my ex-boss and it had the word "cock" on his face would males in the crowd start getting really offended and start throwing bottles at stage? If so, I think the problem is in the audience. This has nothing to do with sexism.

LaGrange 15y ago
Oh my god. You are joking, right? You're actually getting it, but trying to portray a kind of disgusting sexist male that would say that? The slide is offensive, because it relates to objectification of women. It's just that. It would be hard to explain it to you, and, actually, the only reason you don't get it is because you don't want to get it, so I won't even bother for your sake. But, like, I don't think things like what you said should be left without an answer, because some innocent might stumble upon them and think no one objects. It's because of the way women are treated. It's because of the prevalence of violence and rape. It's because a dude probably won't be battered and raped due to him being an ex, but it's something that happens to women all the time. It's something that's hard to grasp for most dudes, including you. It does relate to a form of violence/abuse, and only way you can reject that is by being intentionally obtuse. Oh, and if he put up his previous boss face with the word "cock" on it, he would stand a serious chance of being fired. He put up his ex's (or just random woman's, still relevant) photo with a word "bitch" on it and he still has a job. And the job lets him speak publicly. What. The. Hell.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- Tichy 15y ago
  I think it is inappropriate to call people names in public. But to be honest your rant is a bit over the top in my mind. It's not objectification, rape, slavery or whatever. It was just somebody calling somebody else names in public. ("Cock" on the boss picture would be just as inappropriate).

BasDirks 15y ago

I'm sorry to say, but I agree that Kagan's a total douche, both for this and previous remarks online. The amount of posts about sexism is starting to annoy the hell out of me, but it does deserve attention.

yanowitz 15y ago
I find the actual sexism far more annoying than the posts about it.
- BasDirks 15y ago
  Certainly, that's what I meant to say.
jarin 15y ago
It's ok to call him a "douche" though. (Not defending him, just pointing out the irony)
- kadavy 15y ago
  I came here to say this. Why do we use this word? I prefer the word "database" to "douchebag."
- eli 15y ago
  Well, for one thing, the context is entirely different. I told my coworker he was being a moron last week at happy hour. However, it would be entirely inappropriate if I added a slide about how he's a moron to my next conference slide deck.
kareemm 15y ago
I find it ironic where in a community that's so aggressive about how anecdotes don't equal data there are members who draw conclusions about a person and holler them from the rooftops based on a few random stories on the internet. Noah's a great guy (and a personal friend) who made a joke that didn't go over well. Was it in poor taste? Possibly. But let's get some perspective here before judging others and remember that everybody makes mistakes. You probably were lucky enough not to make them in such a public forum, where random people would holler words like "sexist" and "douche" at you from across the internet.

w1ntermute 15y ago

Much like with Matt Aimonetti's "CouchDB: Perform like a pr0n star" presentation[0], the male-dominated nature of the tech industry sadly often makes men think that it's acceptable to say and do sexist things at industry conferences. It's already hard enough to get women into technology, and things like this only make it even harder. 0: http://omploader.org/vNWNrNg/gogaruco-couchdb-090418194027-phpapp02.pdf http://omploader.org/vNWNrNg/gogaruco-couchdb-090418194027-p...

mikemaccana 15y ago
My standard for sexism is: would it be OK to do it if the situations were reversed? So imagine a woman on stage, picture of some dude with a blot over his face and 'BASTARD' written on it. - Sexist? Not sure it would indicate the speaker hates all men per se, just this one. - But lame, like the speaker couldn't control themselves over their anger at someone and had to bring it on stage for some kind of pathetic vindication? Sure. I'd advise not doing this not because it's sexist, but because it makes the speaker look like an angry, sad individual. PS. If the hot sauce was glass, that's obviously even worse. Lesson: stupid drama (like throwing some ex girlfriend on an unrelated talk) invites more stupid drama (like throwing bottles at someone rather than using words as a first resort).
- jnovek 15y ago
  "My standard for sexism is: would it be OK to do it if the situations were reversed?" This might not actually be a good test because, as a society, we have different social standards for men and women. While Kagan's actions could be considered "masculine", most likely if a woman did something similar it would be considered "bitchy". Because we use different words and standards, it's really hard to truly reverse the situation. By the way, your example indicates that you're confusing sexism and misogyny -- you could debate whether his position is misogynistic (expresses a hatred for women) but it seems fairly likely that it's sexist (makes some women feel uncomfortable in a situation because of their gender).
  - Tichy 15y ago

petercooper 15y ago

Some rather passive aggressive writing in there attempting to belittle Kagan (who I suspect couldn't care less). But this stood out to me as an indicator of the poster's disdain: "Apparently, in the small but influential industry of high tech companies and service providers who cater to high tech startup companies (yes, I’m serious, there is such an industry), Noah Kagan is a bit of a rock star." Yeah, there is such an industry, but the faux incredulity only serves to weaken the other points made.

Duff 15y ago
The ironic thing is that the passive/aggressive style reflects more poorly on the author. It sounds like a public justification about throwing the hot sauce and soaking people. I know nothing about Kagan, except that he sounds like a self-promoter who values name recognition above all else. So whomever wrote this screed was successful at: A - Demonstrating to the world that she is an immature, passive-aggressive type and B - Letting me know who Noah Kagan, a man I have never heard of, is. Who "won" here?

davidandgoliath 15y ago

Curious, if the speaker were female, and had a slide where she had 'asshole' written over some guy's face (Let's use Noah's as an example), would there be a similar level of outrage? As much as it was obviously distasteful no matter the context, I'd find having to listen to him for a half hour more offensive than the image -- worse, knowing I had paid to attend a conference to listen to said drivel.

rwolf 15y ago
This question presumes equality in other ways of our treatment of female presenters. You have changed more than one variable.

look_lookatme 15y ago

His slide was offensive and doesn't belong at a conference, but neither does petulant behavior such as throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the speaker in the middle of his or her presentation.

michael_dorfman 15y ago
But the OP made it very clear that her act was not "throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the speaker in the middle of his or her presentation."
- davidandgoliath 15y ago
  She was clearly throwing it at the other attendees.
- jerrya 15y ago
  OP mansplained that her act was not "throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the speaker in the middle of his or her presentation." Regardless of her mansplanation, in fact her act was "throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the speaker in the middle of his or her presentation." Imagine you're the principal of a middle school and you heard what happened in the auditorium. Are you going to give both kids detention, neither kids, detention, or one kid (which one?) detention?

derfclausen 15y ago

Opportunists tend to objectify many things.

Vivtek 15y ago

I read the entire thing thinking OP was male. It perplexed me why Kagan responded with a curt "No" when asked whether he wanted to understand the episode. Then I saw from the first comment that OP's name is Anne - and suddenly saw why Kagan had been a jerk with her.

Vivtek 15y ago
Also, reading through comments here, the issue of sexism really turns this crowd ugly.
- jdp23 15y ago
  Indeed. That tends to happen on HN. It seems to me, though, that there are now more posts from people who actually do get it. It's too bad we can't see the voting to know the relative popularity of the various posts...
k33n 15y ago
If someone threw a bottle of hot sauce at me during a high pressure situation, I wouldn't care at all about what they have to say to me. If she had approached him respectfully, without an unprovoked physical attack, he would have responded much differently.
- Vivtek 15y ago
  Maybe. I see nothing to support that hypothesis here, but if it makes you feel better, then by all means.
  - deleted 15y ago
    [deleted]
- jtheory 15y ago
  See the comment above from someone who was sitting near her; she was trying to toss it back up to the stage to return it to him (and tried to get his attention so he could catch it) but it didn't work out. She also gave every indication of being mortified when the bottle burst and splattered people. She certainly wasn't trying to bean Noah in the head with it, and I don't get the impression he would have thought that either.

rmc 15y ago

As a tangent, what would be the gender neutral equivalent of "Bitch"? The male equivalent would be "bastard".

fiblye 15y ago
"Jackass", most likely.
dkarl 15y ago
There isn't one. By the literal meaning, it would be "dog", which used to be a common insult, if literature is any guide, but which has fallen out of use. "Bitch" implies malice and viciousness, shallow in thought but deeply ingrained. And, of course, it implies unwomanliness, and it doesn't make sense to accuse a man of unwomanliness. The disturbing thing with insults is that even today, they're mostly used in gender-specific ways. Even the ones that don't seem gender-specific, such as "jerk", are rarely applied to women. That's sexism in itself -- when we want to insult a woman, instead of reaching for a word that communicates exactly what we feel, we fall back on the generic "bitch" because her gender seems to have something to do with her transgression. There are so many words to choose from that communicate exactly what's wrong with someone: jerk, liar, pig, dumbass, worm, bastard, loudmouth, traitor. It should feel just as right and satisfying to apply them to a woman as to a man. But in the heat of the moment, your aggression amplifies every negative feeling, including your sexism, and you watch to lash out at that bitch. Better control yourself, though. When you call someone a "bitch", it sounds like you think what they've done was inappropriate for a woman. I.e., maybe it would have been fine if she was a man. Now you've got everyone wondering how you feel about women instead of thinking about what she's done to earn your enmity. So next time you want to lash out verbally at a woman, choose your words carefully. Is she an idiot? A jerk? A dick? (Hmmm, maybe there's a better word for that.) Let's let "bitch" go the way of "harpy" and "harridan". When you hear those words, you don't really trust them, because they give away the fact that the speaker is holding their target to a sexist standard of femininity. Somehow "bitch" survived as our only remaining insult for women (except "whore", "slut", and all the other words that mean "woman who makes me feel bad by having sex with men who aren't me".) Well, there's "cunt", but that's mostly a Briticism, and it's just as lazy and meaningless as "bitch". There are so many ways to give your listener a vivid image of your target instead of have them wondering about your misogyny. You could call someone mealy-mouthed, two-faced, greedy, ruthless, petty, malicious, mercenary, or disloyal. (When a woman's sexual behavior disturbs you, try "dishonest": if that doesn't apply, then she probably isn't doing anything wrong.) Not only will you seem much more composed, serious, and credible than if you resorted to "bitch", not only will you leave your listeners with a more vivid and convincing image of your target, it's also much more efficient, since you'll be using the same store of insults for both men and women. And as hackers we should always be using the most abstract solution. (Of course, if you really want it to hurt, then sexism never hurts. Or rather, it always hurts. But when you're playing to an audience, malice undermines your credibility.)

frankdenbow 15y ago

(I was the guy in front scraping hot sauce off my computer/bag/clothes after you threw the bottle up front) Totally understand why you would be offended by the slide. Noah is a bit edgier than most, and he was likely going for entertainment value. It was not in the best taste to do it. From what I know of Noah Kagan, he seems to be a good guy that goes out of his way to help people in the scene. If all you got out of his talk was to type faster, I think you missed out on a lot. There are lots of great points that were made that may have been lost in presentation for you. Also not sure if he fully understood why you wanted to explain why you threw the bottle, but I'll let him defend himself on that. I'm all for being upfront and honest about things (sort of what my last post was about [0]) so its good to have these things out there. Its much more effective than throwing hotsauce at innocent bystanders :-) 0: http://frankdenbow.tumblr.com/post/7269203638/on-honesty-in-startupland http://frankdenbow.tumblr.com/post/7269203638/on-honesty-in-...

pradocchia 15y ago
Noah is a bit edgier than most At this point, if anyone ever described me as "edgy", I'd be aghast.
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edash 15y ago
I didn't get hot sauce on me and I wasn't at MicroConf — but I will defend Noah. I've met him on several occasions and he's been friendly and helpful. He also gives time and energy to many people and projects without wanting anything in return. I'm not defending his presentation; that slide offends me too. But I know that he deserves better than to wake up seeing this on the front page of Hacker News. The author could have used the slide as a jumping off point for greater issues like gender equality in tech, or the pros and cons of being offensive in a presentation, or even a discussion about the word "bitch". Any of those topics would have forwarded the point more than writing a long ad hominem attack on someone who surely didn't intend to hurt or offend anyone personally.

lxmorj 15y ago

Thoughts: -She threw the bottle and it landed halfway. Was it an inaccurate assessment of Noah to assume she might not catch it? Looks like she proved him right in that regard, at least. -The picture wasn't 'scantily clad' or derogatory, and was unidentifiable. There is a fair chance it wasn't even a picture of an ex. -There was some context, albeit I believe the main point was to keep people awake. 6 hours of speakers is a lot. -Maybe I'm thinking too much into it, but I'm fairly sure 'type faster' was analogous to 'little shit can add up'. -I've always considered 'bitch' to be a female specific version of 'dick'. Both being fairly synonymous with 'asshole'. -She very much objectively f'ed up some of Frank's things. I was sitting between them and the bottle flew directly over my head. It is kind of a joke to get mad at someone's immaturity and respond in-kind, damaging a bystanders property. Long story short- Noah is blunt. Maybe douchey. But throwing a tantrum and making a mess hardly gives you the higher ground.

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nateberkopec 15y ago

Whether or not we (the mostly male HN community) think it's "offensive" is beside the point. Are we going to encourage more women to get into tech if we call them "faceless bitches?" Does that create a welcoming atmosphere? I certainly don't think so. We sit back and wonder "gawrsh, why aren't there more women hackers/programmers/tech entrepreneurs?" This. This is why.

citricsquid 15y ago
I think above all this is why be a dick to anyone. Gender should not matter, a community where being a dick to someone else (nameless or not) is acceptable makes for a bad community.
k33n 15y ago
Would it have been appropriate for the speaker to display an image of a man with his face covered with a circled labeled "asshole" before saying "this is my old boss"? I'd be willing to wager that OP is simply an unhappy, angry person who enjoys playing the victim whenever possible. Nobody called her a bitch. Nobody called all women in tech bitches. If someone is so sensitive that one slide in a presentation would keep them out of our industry, it's safe to say we're better off without them. I've worked with plenty of women in tech and they're no different to me than my male colleagues.

peterwwillis 15y ago

Request: next time anyone writes about a sexist talk by a clueless startup rockstar, keep it to 5 paragraphs. I don't need to spend 20 minutes reading filler just to hear about Sriracha throwing and a slide of a guy's ex-girlfriend.

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monochromatic 15y ago

The faceless bitch slide? Maybe a little offensive and a touch douchey. But breaking a bottle of hot sauce on people and then writing this rant? Bitchy. Get over yourself.

andrewcooke 15y ago

i first asked for a while back, but i think we need it more and more: i would pay good money for a system that tracked people not as friends, but as arseholes. an application that correlates identities across sites and greys out their comments and the like. in "real life" i can pick my friends and drop the arseholes. online i have no idea who "Thom" (see comments on that article) might be, and no way of flagging that same user on, say stackoveflow, when they are asking for help. we need some way to make karma work better online. http://www.acooke.org/cute/Automatemy0.html http://www.acooke.org/cute/Automatemy0.html

WingForward 15y ago
iHate?
- andrewcooke 15y ago
  well, more ithinkyouarenotveryniceandsoiwontplaywithyousothere or, perhaps better, ifyouwantmyrespectgrowthefuckupandearnit

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etruong42 15y ago

tl;dr the author attended MicroConf2011, enjoyed the overall experience, but disagreed with (aspects of) Noah Kagan's presentation and ended up throwing a bottle of hot sauce at the presenter. The rambling, ranting writing style removed all of the author's credibility in my eyes. The writing focused on the author's actions and feelings, rather than the facts of the day. The fact that the author threw a bottle of hot sauce does not help portray a level-headed narrator either. The author may be providing a legitimate case and outcry against sexism, but when the author reduces it to matter of their own ego and hurt feelings, I do not give it any credence.

anishkothari 15y ago
This reminds of the food fights in high school.

hadtocomment 15y ago

It occurs to me that OP might be more upset about receiving the bottle of hot sauce than she was about the images. Sure, the writhing woman and the bitch slide were offensive, but it wasn't until Kagan ostensibly attempted to marginalize her by rewarding her with the hot sauce that she really got angry. Money quote: "What I should have done was stand up, walk the bottle of hot sauce back up to the stage, point out to Noah Kagan that he had not earned the right to give ME a token of recognition..." That's really what this is all about: "boys being boys" and not acknowledging that there's anything wrong with it, despite obvious indications (like an audience member taking a photo of your offensive slide) that there is indeed something wrong with it.

lesterbuck 15y ago

I attended Microconf, and I sat on the third row aisle. Anne was sitting directly behind me. Thus, I had a ringside seat for the hot sauce incident. I am somewhat surprised to learn that Anne was enraged at the picture, as I was not detecting that at all. I need to work on that. I do specifically remember that Anne received the hot sauce and clearly did not want it, so she started pumping her arm preparing to return it. Alas, after three or four pumps, Noah had not noticed, and I figured she would return it otherwise. But suddenly it was released, without enough force to make it to the side of the stage where she was aiming. My impression at the time was that Anne was being playful in the same way as Noah, trying to give it back, but that was not what was going through Anne's head. If I had known she was so upset, I would have discussed it with her. As it was, I just thought it was a playful way to get into the flow of the talk that had backfired, and best not bring it up with her. As for Noah, I was looking forward to his Microconf talk, as I listen to most Mixergy interviews, and Noah is a huge resource for Andrew's recruiting new interviewees. It is interesting how Noah has briliant ideas but seems to have some impulse control. For example, sending underwear to people he wants to meet, to get their attention - brilliant! Showing his underwear during a Mixergy interview - a mistake. (Glad I was audio only there...) The faceless bitch was hardly the only sexual innuendo from Noah. He had had some blowback from his ASmartBear guest post recently, where he started a blog post in which he mentions, in passing, waking up next to his naked girlfriend. In his very first comments at Microconf, he brings up how everyone thought that blog post was about his sexual adventures, when of course it was about burnout. Except the out of place denial practically proves the rule - Noah is a very sexual guy, and it oozes from him. It almost defines him. Out of the 120 Microconf attendees, who brought their (very attractive) girlfriend? Only Noah Kagan. Who referred to his previous girlfriend as a bitch, live, in front of his current girlfriend? Noah Kagan. Some of these sexual references go over the line, and make tech conferences a hostile place for women. But I think sometimes we doth protest too much at one of the fundamental forces driving entrepreneurship, and that is sex. Napoleon Hill, writing in the 1930s, devoted an entire chapter to "The Mystery of Sex Transmutation", and how the most successful entrepreneurs can take the enormous energy available as the sex drive and convert it into useful work. Yes, the vague idea that we can win the hot chick will drive many, many long dark nights of building a company. I keep suggesting to Andrew Warner, our modern version of Napoleon Hill, to explore this powerful drive, and how successful entrepreneurs harness it to their advantage.

kadavy 15y ago

This is going to be a very biased comment because Noah is a close personal friend of mine. Noah will generally be the same guy while talking to your parents as he is having a beer with close friends: direct, open, and sometimes irreverent. This is shocking to many people in our (to use the author's term) "post-polite" society, but this is precisely why Noah is one of my favorite people in the world. When you're talking to Noah, you know that he will tell you exactly what he thinks, and he'll have fun doing it. I owe a tremendous portion of any success I've had to Noah. In addition to being a brilliant marketer, Noah has taught me to ask for forgiveness and not for permission - something every entrepreneur needs to be reminded of every once in awhile. He's always been a huge help to me. A mere 2-minute conversation with him can be pure gold, so it's a shame that the author was too upset to absorb what was (just positing - I wasn't there) probably a great presentation. On one hand, I personally would not have used "the bitch slide" in a presentation. There are not enough women in tech, and while I wouldn't compare the word "bitch" to a racial slur, it is just sexist enough to ensure that at least some of the few women who are in the audience will feel alienated when used within the context of a male-dominated conference. I'm sure that Noah doesn't really think that his ex-girlfriend is a bitch. His current girlfriend is the only serious relationship I've known him to have in the past 5 years, so he may have just made up this ex for the sake of joking. In actuality, Noah is one of the more emotionally mature and communicative people I've ever met, so he's perfectly capable of understanding that relationships are two-way streets. On the other hand, the hypersensitivity the author demonstrates is exactly the kind of buttoned-up bourgeois bullshit that made me want to work for myself. I want the freedom to be myself. Sexuality, relationships, and the ambivalence that comes from all of it are a part of being a human, and success in entrepreneurship is about as close as one can come to self-actualization (at least in America). The line: > the small but influential industry of high tech companies and service providers who cater to high tech startup companies (yes, I’m serious, there is such an industry) gives away that the author was clearly out of her element. This isn't the world of stodgy HR policies and training manuals. We make it up as we go along, we test the boundaries, and sometimes we make mistakes just to find out where those boundaries are. I'll be damned if a flame post and an errant Sriracha bottle is going to take that away from us.

verdum 15y ago

jarin 15y ago

At the first Ignite San Diego, one presenter gave a talk comparing working in the tech industry with being a pick-up artist. I think it was pretty comparable to this presentation, but I remember the general opinion being more that it was more in extreme poor taste than straight-up offensive. I also remember thinking it was a little ironic how many people threw the word "douchebag" around afterward. Admittedly, I don't have quite the same perspective since I'm a man, but as a minority I try to imagine if someone used some word like "chink" or talked about "peeing in your Coke" in a presentation in an effort to be edgy. Unless it was said in a patently hateful way, I probably would think of the speaker as stupid rather than malicious. It's also possible that growing up in Hawaii (where ethnic jokes are socially acceptable, and generally made without malice) has made me take a "it's probably a joke unless proven otherwise" default reaction.

parfe 15y ago

Kagan's current girlfriend should be the one offended. If he's willing to call an ex a bitch she is in danger of him defaming her in a similar way if they split. And they seem to share a professional environment which could be detrimental to her career. Guys who publicly call exes bitches generally consider all exes "bitches" because of their self centered view of why the relationship failed. "No Cindy, you're special. My ex Jane was total bitch." "No Jane, you're special. My ex Stephanie was a total bitch." "No Stephanie you're special. My ex Anne was a total bitch." If he's capable of calling the ex a bitch in public he's capable of the same with his current girlfriend.

veastley 15y ago

I was sitting right in front of Anne at the conference, so I didn't see her throw the hot sauce, but I did see the bottle explode all over the stage and the people in front of me. My first response was to shut my MacBook Air. ;-) An awkward tension hung in the air like a big stink bomb once everyone realized what had just happened. Noah managed to brush off the incident and continue his talk as if nothing happened. I'm sure I couldn't have continued so coolly if I were in his place. I doubt any of us at the conference understand what was going through Anne's head at the time. I was confused by the whole incident, and figured she didn't want the hot sauce and was trying to playfully toss it back. As for Noah's presentation, I thought parts of it were very low-class and out of place. My opinion of him as a person was lower at the end of his talk. That said, I did gain some valuable insights that have helped me focus better and improve my business.

paolomaffei 15y ago

To me this sounds like a delirious rambling about someone who is embarassed to have thrown hot sauce on some people. I don't know who Noah Kagan is.

Perceval 15y ago

This reminds me of the kerfuffle over the Drunken Batman slide "Black People Don't Use Macs" http://www.flickr.com/photos/rtmfd/1097058025/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/rtmfd/1097058025/

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irms 15y ago

I'll tell you, it's not so much the slide itself that that was upsetting -- although he was essentially begging for someone to say "orgasm" and that was a sad sight to see; the audience was way ahead of him and didn't want to partake -- but that he carried himself like a jerk, wanted people like him because he was a jerk, and ultimately had no message in his presentation. It was hard to watch, and not because I'm a woman, but because an hour is a long time to listen to someone talk excitedly about nothing.

agunn 15y ago

I'm late to this party. I hit Publish on my Noah Kagan post, headed off for some vacation, and came back to a week of getting product out the door. By the time I realized how much interest the piece had stirred up, I was thoroughly behind the curve. I didn't want to jump in till I'd had a chance to go through the whole thread, which I finally got to do yesterday. Don't worry; I'm not going to try to dredge this one up with responses to a lot of different comments, just one, I think. For anyone who might still have an ounce of interest, I did try to respond to some of the comments and questions that were, more or less, directed to me, over on my blog[0]. All I can say, from this my first real encounter with Hacker News, is, "Wow. This is a remarkable place. Such passion and energy, so much erudition, and so many flames." ag 0: http://sherprog.com/2011/07/24/kudos-regrets-apologies-lesson http://sherprog.com/2011/07/24/kudos-regrets-apologies-lesso...

agunn 15y ago