4 ms·

Bennet is pretty different than Netanyahu. For one thing he is religious. He is probably more hawkish from the perspective of the historical rights of the Jew

by YZF 5y ago

Bennet is pretty different than Netanyahu. For one thing he is religious. He is probably more hawkish from the perspective of the historical rights of the Jewish people in the region but he is also possibly more pragmatic. The religious zionist parties in the past had no problem sitting in coalition with left wing parties. While the heart of the conflict is probably not something that can be resolved by anyone at this time at least I think he and his coalition will try to steer things in a better direction. This is the first time in Israeli history where we have Israeli Arab (Palestinian) parties in the coalition/government in Israel. That's pretty big step forward. This potentially is the first step towards eventually forming a single state which is in my mind is the only solution that's going to work. For those who think the two state option is a solution this is maybe a step backwards. If you think about a single state then the gap between some of the Israeli right (that considers the lands to be part of that state) and the Israeli left isn't that large. This is sort of what this government is about, that the civil aspects, the day to day life of everyone, can be decoupled from the nationalistic aspect. In a single state the Israeli right gets to "keep" those lands so that problem is solved. The problem of Jerusalem is also solved. That's not to say there aren't a whole bunch of other really difficult questions... Maybe this single state is a federation (so it's two states in the US sense but one country). I'm really hopeful something good will come out of this.

joelbluminator 5y ago
> In a single state the Israeli right gets to "keep" those lands In a single state jews become a minority, their army is democratically dismantled and what happens next is anyone's guess...looking at surrounding countries there's no reason to be too optimistic.
- YZF 5y ago
  I'm not sure the Jewish would be a minority... Unless you're including "The right of return" in you calculations. But that shouldn't be a given. There can also be a constitution that requires special majority to change. But yeah, like I said, this doesn't solve all the problems. It just seems the problems this leaves us with are easier to solve. The reality is that all these people are gonna need to figure out some way to get along. And that's all this is, a bunch of people, Palestinians, Arabs, Jewish, Christian etc. Within the right sort of framework this could work. It could still be a homeland for the Jewish people but it can also be the country for other people as well who enjoy equal (-ish?) rights. Not unlike many other western countries which are Christian but minorities get equal-ish rights this could be a Jewish "western"/democratic country with about half the population not Jewish. Could work. You may say I'm a dreamer ;)
  - joelbluminator 5y ago
    There are quite a few difficulties with this vision: 1) Aren't Jews entitled to self determination? That was the whole point of Zionism which the U.N eventually supported. 2) The only example of a binational state we have in the middle east (Lebanon) suffered many civil wars and horrible atrocities between Christians and Muslims. The animosity between Palestinian (Muslims) and Israeli Jews is older and stronger. Would you consider moving 300 million Chinese to the U.S to make one big happy democracy? 3) The problems we have now can look tiny compared to some Islamist fundamentalist regime over the whole area (something like Hamas, which is the body most Palestinians prefer). Where is this expectation of democracy coming from? It's an extreme rarity in the middle east: "Israel is the only democratic country (qualified as a "flawed democracy", ranked #28 worldwide) in the Middle East, while Tunisia (#53 worldwide) is the only democracy (also "flawed democracy") in North Africa." But yeah, the current mess makes any change welcome I guess, even if it's destructive.
    - YZF 5y ago
      There are 2 million non-Jewish Israeli citizens right now and it seems to work. Why can't it work with 5-6 million? Yes. The idea that the combined country still be the homeland of the Jewish people needs to be recognized as should the historic rights of the Jews in that region. The rights of the people who have lived there in more recent history can also be recognized. These should not be mutually exclusive. There are plenty of reasons why the rest of the region is messed up I'm not sure I want to look at that as evidence this can't work. There were plenty of periods in recent history where most Palestinians and Jews got along just fine. I don't think the animosity runs as deep as you're portraying. Sure, a lot of blood has been spilled since which doesn't help but there's plenty historical examples (lessay in Europe) where people have moved on. This is a multi-decade process. It's not something that will happen from today to tomorrow.
      - joelbluminator 5y ago
        There are 5 million Chinese citizens in the U.S, why cant it work with 200 million more? 5 million more Palestinians is exactly the difference between being a majoriry and controlling your future to being a minority. There are not so many examples of this working out. Jews lived in relative peace in Palestine when they were a tiny Arab speaking minority, now they are seen as a colonialist entity. Jews were almost entirely cleansed from all Arab countries to the point we have today only a few thousands left (they used to number a million). Even in European cities in 2021 there are big question marks on whether Jews and Muslims can live together. The animosity now became religious as well so its unclear if it wll stop if Zionism stops. And again, where is the expectation of democracy coming from? The state you are proposing is as likely to become democratic as China or Egypt.

by YZF 5y ago

joelbluminator 5y ago

> In a single state the Israeli right gets to "keep" those lands In a single state jews become a minority, their army is democratically dismantled and what happens next is anyone's guess...looking at surrounding countries there's no reason to be too optimistic.

YZF 5y ago
I'm not sure the Jewish would be a minority... Unless you're including "The right of return" in you calculations. But that shouldn't be a given. There can also be a constitution that requires special majority to change. But yeah, like I said, this doesn't solve all the problems. It just seems the problems this leaves us with are easier to solve. The reality is that all these people are gonna need to figure out some way to get along. And that's all this is, a bunch of people, Palestinians, Arabs, Jewish, Christian etc. Within the right sort of framework this could work. It could still be a homeland for the Jewish people but it can also be the country for other people as well who enjoy equal (-ish?) rights. Not unlike many other western countries which are Christian but minorities get equal-ish rights this could be a Jewish "western"/democratic country with about half the population not Jewish. Could work. You may say I'm a dreamer ;)
- joelbluminator 5y ago
  There are quite a few difficulties with this vision: 1) Aren't Jews entitled to self determination? That was the whole point of Zionism which the U.N eventually supported. 2) The only example of a binational state we have in the middle east (Lebanon) suffered many civil wars and horrible atrocities between Christians and Muslims. The animosity between Palestinian (Muslims) and Israeli Jews is older and stronger. Would you consider moving 300 million Chinese to the U.S to make one big happy democracy? 3) The problems we have now can look tiny compared to some Islamist fundamentalist regime over the whole area (something like Hamas, which is the body most Palestinians prefer). Where is this expectation of democracy coming from? It's an extreme rarity in the middle east: "Israel is the only democratic country (qualified as a "flawed democracy", ranked #28 worldwide) in the Middle East, while Tunisia (#53 worldwide) is the only democracy (also "flawed democracy") in North Africa." But yeah, the current mess makes any change welcome I guess, even if it's destructive.
  - YZF 5y ago
    There are 2 million non-Jewish Israeli citizens right now and it seems to work. Why can't it work with 5-6 million? Yes. The idea that the combined country still be the homeland of the Jewish people needs to be recognized as should the historic rights of the Jews in that region. The rights of the people who have lived there in more recent history can also be recognized. These should not be mutually exclusive. There are plenty of reasons why the rest of the region is messed up I'm not sure I want to look at that as evidence this can't work. There were plenty of periods in recent history where most Palestinians and Jews got along just fine. I don't think the animosity runs as deep as you're portraying. Sure, a lot of blood has been spilled since which doesn't help but there's plenty historical examples (lessay in Europe) where people have moved on. This is a multi-decade process. It's not something that will happen from today to tomorrow.
    - joelbluminator 5y ago
      There are 5 million Chinese citizens in the U.S, why cant it work with 200 million more? 5 million more Palestinians is exactly the difference between being a majoriry and controlling your future to being a minority. There are not so many examples of this working out. Jews lived in relative peace in Palestine when they were a tiny Arab speaking minority, now they are seen as a colonialist entity. Jews were almost entirely cleansed from all Arab countries to the point we have today only a few thousands left (they used to number a million). Even in European cities in 2021 there are big question marks on whether Jews and Muslims can live together. The animosity now became religious as well so its unclear if it wll stop if Zionism stops. And again, where is the expectation of democracy coming from? The state you are proposing is as likely to become democratic as China or Egypt.