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So was the Madagascar Plan really on the table or not. Please answer only that, is this complete misinformation because my internet filter bubble got distorted

So was the Madagascar Plan really on the table or not. Please answer only that, is this complete misinformation because my internet filter bubble got distorted by some weird searches years ago? Or do the records genuinely exist and compete with our understanding of the outcome.

detaro 5y ago
From my understanding: It existed, and the German apparatus acted as if it did. Turning Madagascar into a SS-run concentration camp as planned would have been genocide too, so it arguably doesn't matter all that much. Similar to some of the other "Jewish reservations" that had happened previously, e.g. Lublin-Nisko: It turns out if you cram many thousands people into an area without infrastructure, shoot everyone who tries to leave and add some forced labor, survival rates are not good. Who at what point considered mass deaths to be the point of the exercise vs just a (tolerable or welcomed) side-effect boils down to an aspect of the functionalism/intentionalism debate.
yawaworht1978 5y ago
Well the Nazi government had a bit of a selective modus operandi when it came to procedures. They didn't widely announce t4, even the gassings were just delegated by Hitler and the implementation was left to the command chain. What they wanted known, they made known, the less popular projects were delegated verbally. There have been many, many more diplomatic lies, from other governments out of fear of Germany, it is pretty incredible. For example how the Romanians communicated the Germans are there to train their forces, the reality was protection of gas resources. Or the very sad story how Hungary was coerced to attack former Yugoslavia by means of acrobatics with the truth only days after signing a forever friendship and brotherhood treaty, it was so bad then prime minister Teleki commutes suicide over it. In his suicide note, Teleki wrote in part: We broke our word, – out of cowardice […] The nation feels it, and we have thrown away its honor. The Nazi Germany diplomatic communications were far from honest and this man called it by the name. I always remember how the British considered Hitler's appeasement as a big mistake, they had a hunch. Hitler also ordered every occupied nation to be free of Jews with little time given for the task and implementation of it up to the occupied puppet governments. It does not matter if the Madagascar plan existed, what matters is what really happened. The Madagascar plan was broadcast just like any other Nazi propaganda, which was riddled with lies.

detaro 5y ago

From my understanding: It existed, and the German apparatus acted as if it did. Turning Madagascar into a SS-run concentration camp as planned would have been genocide too, so it arguably doesn't matter all that much. Similar to some of the other "Jewish reservations" that had happened previously, e.g. Lublin-Nisko: It turns out if you cram many thousands people into an area without infrastructure, shoot everyone who tries to leave and add some forced labor, survival rates are not good. Who at what point considered mass deaths to be the point of the exercise vs just a (tolerable or welcomed) side-effect boils down to an aspect of the functionalism/intentionalism debate.

yawaworht1978 5y ago

Well the Nazi government had a bit of a selective modus operandi when it came to procedures. They didn't widely announce t4, even the gassings were just delegated by Hitler and the implementation was left to the command chain. What they wanted known, they made known, the less popular projects were delegated verbally. There have been many, many more diplomatic lies, from other governments out of fear of Germany, it is pretty incredible. For example how the Romanians communicated the Germans are there to train their forces, the reality was protection of gas resources. Or the very sad story how Hungary was coerced to attack former Yugoslavia by means of acrobatics with the truth only days after signing a forever friendship and brotherhood treaty, it was so bad then prime minister Teleki commutes suicide over it. In his suicide note, Teleki wrote in part: We broke our word, – out of cowardice […] The nation feels it, and we have thrown away its honor. The Nazi Germany diplomatic communications were far from honest and this man called it by the name. I always remember how the British considered Hitler's appeasement as a big mistake, they had a hunch. Hitler also ordered every occupied nation to be free of Jews with little time given for the task and implementation of it up to the occupied puppet governments. It does not matter if the Madagascar plan existed, what matters is what really happened. The Madagascar plan was broadcast just like any other Nazi propaganda, which was riddled with lies.