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The biggest threat to Linux on phones could be Fuchsia. If/when Google decides to switch to a Fuchsia base for Android, all the chipset vendors will follow suit

The biggest threat to Linux on phones could be Fuchsia. If/when Google decides to switch to a Fuchsia base for Android, all the chipset vendors will follow suit and that will make it even harder to find chipsets that can be used with a Linux kernel - upstream or not. That will dry up the amount of effort put into making Linux a good mobile platform. Maybe the stable binary api of Fuchsia drivers will be usable on Linux with a wrapper, but that obviously won't be open enough for projects like the Librem5 (I'm not sure what is Pine64 position on binary drivers).

testific8 5y ago
The pine64 position on binary drivers is not as hard as the purism one (perhaps they try to balance more with cost), but there are still projects to reverse-engineer and replace some non-free firmware, such as the modem firmware: https://github.com/Biktorgj/pinephone_modem_sdk https://github.com/Biktorgj/pinephone_modem_sdk. I agree that Fuchsia will become a problem going forwards, even if Fuchsia drivers can be reverse-engineered. It's also possible that phone hardware is commodified enough that google will be unable to lock us out, or that google abandons or delays the Fuchsia project.
- posguy 5y ago
  The PinePhone has the same security properties as the Nokia N900 where the modem is connected over USB rather than an interface with direct memory access (eg: PCIe) where the proprietary software running on the modem can read anything in main memory.
  - fragileone 5y ago
    IOMMU groups are supposed to compartmentalise modems here, but as far as I know this tends to be blackboxed on Qualcomm processors.
UbrtrbNchDneRle 5y ago
Don’t you think we will see more general computing ARM chips with the M1’s success? Aren’t we approaching a world where your phone, tablet (hopefully eating the laptop…), desktop and server all run more or less the same chip?
- candiodari 5y ago
  CPU standardization is already here, your iPhone runs ARMv8-A does that allow you to replace the kernel on your iPhone? What it is about android that allows you to do so is the copyleft license on the linux kernel. Chips can be locked down, and they generally are.
  - UbrtrbNchDneRle 5y ago
    Yes, but I don’t understand how Fuchsia prevents pine64 to offer a Linux compatible chip. Not being able to unlock an android/fuchsia/iOS phone doesn’t really matter, does it? Either way, I was hinting at a possible liberation through the laptop/desktop/server ARM SoC market, which is certainly coming. I think x86 is “over”.
    - candiodari 5y ago
      Well: if fuchsia becomes the standard phone OS, the current practice of providing kernel source (to the point it can be compiled into working firmware) will end. It doesn't prevent anyone from providing linux firmwares, but it takes away the reason they must do so.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  No, because the M1 is like every other phone and tablet out there in that they're ARM SoCs. There are significant downsides to ARM SoCs compared to x86-64 machines in that they have no standardized architecture, nor enumerable buses.
lupire 5y ago
Is something wrong with using Fuchsia kernel insted of Linux? It's open source and it has a modern, secure capability architecture. Running Linux binaries, not just source code, is a design goal of Fuchsia: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26104667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26104667
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ognarb 5y ago
  Most (all?) the drivers will be closed source since the license allows it.
  - Google234 5y ago
    At least they won’t break with every minor update.
    - fabrice_d 5y ago
      Unless the OEMs customize the whole stack to only allow the kernel to talk to their drivers. That is only enforceable by legal constraints from Google akin to the CTS [0]. [0] https://source.android.com/compatibility/cts https://source.android.com/compatibility/cts
  - posguy 5y ago
    Worse yet, the OS itself is non-GPL, an OEM can modify Fuchsia outside just the drivers to support their device (eg: create a board support package) and never release their modifications to their customers, meaning the community can't compile their own updates to the software running on the device (worse than our current Android situation).
- posguy 5y ago
  Fuchsia has separated the drivers from the kernel[1], enabling proprietary drivers that are never updated to become acceptable. This can result in Blueborne[2], GPU vulnerabilities[3], and any other proprietary driver remaining permanently vulnerable as the hardware manufacturer has no incentive to update the driver. In Fuchsia's model, you can run the latest OS with these vulnerable, non-updated drivers, or your device ODM could even release nothing and you don't have the GPLv2 to fall back on to get the Board Support Package for your hardware to build your own updates with. 1 - https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/8/22163225/google-fuchsia-os-call-contributors-mailing-list-governance https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/8/22163225/google-fuchsia-o... 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueBorne_(security_vulnerability) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueBorne_(security_vulnerabil... 3 - https://redd.it/s48lz https://redd.it/s48lz
spankalee 5y ago
Fuchsia is a much more secure and updatable platform. It'd be wonderful if there was a Pine-like for Fuchsia, especially if they can use open drivers.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  It will definitely be more secure, but probably drastically less open, since there won't be any GPL code underneath for people to demand copies of. Fuchsia, once it reaches the level of polish required of proper Google products, will be as closed as iOS. And security will be the justification for it.
  - spankalee 5y ago
    The Fuchsia code itself is open, and while a vendor could make changes and not release them, a project like Pine wouldn't do that. That would indeed be a major motivation to use a Pine-like over other vendors.
    - testific8 5y ago
      pine64 and purism are lot smaller than qualcomm and the like. They don't have that type of leverage.
    - CameronNemo 5y ago
      Pine does not contribute device drivers, the SoC vendors and groups like Linaro&Collabora write them primarily. Hopefully SoC vendors and IP vendors release the source for their device drivers.
    - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
      > The Fuchsia code itself is open For now. It doesn't yet have all of the proprietary bits added in, nor has it been shipped to OEM devices using mobile device hardware. Most of the proprietary Google bits of Android are proprietary by choice, there's no way Google is going to be any more open with Fuchsia.
    - 5y ago

testific8 5y ago

The pine64 position on binary drivers is not as hard as the purism one (perhaps they try to balance more with cost), but there are still projects to reverse-engineer and replace some non-free firmware, such as the modem firmware: https://github.com/Biktorgj/pinephone_modem_sdk https://github.com/Biktorgj/pinephone_modem_sdk. I agree that Fuchsia will become a problem going forwards, even if Fuchsia drivers can be reverse-engineered. It's also possible that phone hardware is commodified enough that google will be unable to lock us out, or that google abandons or delays the Fuchsia project.

posguy 5y ago
The PinePhone has the same security properties as the Nokia N900 where the modem is connected over USB rather than an interface with direct memory access (eg: PCIe) where the proprietary software running on the modem can read anything in main memory.
- fragileone 5y ago
  IOMMU groups are supposed to compartmentalise modems here, but as far as I know this tends to be blackboxed on Qualcomm processors.

UbrtrbNchDneRle 5y ago

Don’t you think we will see more general computing ARM chips with the M1’s success? Aren’t we approaching a world where your phone, tablet (hopefully eating the laptop…), desktop and server all run more or less the same chip?

candiodari 5y ago
CPU standardization is already here, your iPhone runs ARMv8-A does that allow you to replace the kernel on your iPhone? What it is about android that allows you to do so is the copyleft license on the linux kernel. Chips can be locked down, and they generally are.
- UbrtrbNchDneRle 5y ago
  Yes, but I don’t understand how Fuchsia prevents pine64 to offer a Linux compatible chip. Not being able to unlock an android/fuchsia/iOS phone doesn’t really matter, does it? Either way, I was hinting at a possible liberation through the laptop/desktop/server ARM SoC market, which is certainly coming. I think x86 is “over”.
  - candiodari 5y ago
    Well: if fuchsia becomes the standard phone OS, the current practice of providing kernel source (to the point it can be compiled into working firmware) will end. It doesn't prevent anyone from providing linux firmwares, but it takes away the reason they must do so.
heavyset_go 5y ago
No, because the M1 is like every other phone and tablet out there in that they're ARM SoCs. There are significant downsides to ARM SoCs compared to x86-64 machines in that they have no standardized architecture, nor enumerable buses.

lupire 5y ago

Is something wrong with using Fuchsia kernel insted of Linux? It's open source and it has a modern, secure capability architecture. Running Linux binaries, not just source code, is a design goal of Fuchsia: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26104667 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26104667

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ognarb 5y ago
Most (all?) the drivers will be closed source since the license allows it.
- Google234 5y ago
  At least they won’t break with every minor update.
  - fabrice_d 5y ago
    Unless the OEMs customize the whole stack to only allow the kernel to talk to their drivers. That is only enforceable by legal constraints from Google akin to the CTS [0]. [0] https://source.android.com/compatibility/cts https://source.android.com/compatibility/cts
- posguy 5y ago
  Worse yet, the OS itself is non-GPL, an OEM can modify Fuchsia outside just the drivers to support their device (eg: create a board support package) and never release their modifications to their customers, meaning the community can't compile their own updates to the software running on the device (worse than our current Android situation).
posguy 5y ago
Fuchsia has separated the drivers from the kernel[1], enabling proprietary drivers that are never updated to become acceptable. This can result in Blueborne[2], GPU vulnerabilities[3], and any other proprietary driver remaining permanently vulnerable as the hardware manufacturer has no incentive to update the driver. In Fuchsia's model, you can run the latest OS with these vulnerable, non-updated drivers, or your device ODM could even release nothing and you don't have the GPLv2 to fall back on to get the Board Support Package for your hardware to build your own updates with. 1 - https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/8/22163225/google-fuchsia-os-call-contributors-mailing-list-governance https://www.theverge.com/2020/12/8/22163225/google-fuchsia-o... 2 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueBorne_(security_vulnerability) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BlueBorne_(security_vulnerabil... 3 - https://redd.it/s48lz https://redd.it/s48lz

spankalee 5y ago

Fuchsia is a much more secure and updatable platform. It'd be wonderful if there was a Pine-like for Fuchsia, especially if they can use open drivers.

ocdtrekkie 5y ago
It will definitely be more secure, but probably drastically less open, since there won't be any GPL code underneath for people to demand copies of. Fuchsia, once it reaches the level of polish required of proper Google products, will be as closed as iOS. And security will be the justification for it.
- spankalee 5y ago
  The Fuchsia code itself is open, and while a vendor could make changes and not release them, a project like Pine wouldn't do that. That would indeed be a major motivation to use a Pine-like over other vendors.
  - testific8 5y ago
    pine64 and purism are lot smaller than qualcomm and the like. They don't have that type of leverage.
  - CameronNemo 5y ago
    Pine does not contribute device drivers, the SoC vendors and groups like Linaro&Collabora write them primarily. Hopefully SoC vendors and IP vendors release the source for their device drivers.
  - ocdtrekkie 5y ago
    > The Fuchsia code itself is open For now. It doesn't yet have all of the proprietary bits added in, nor has it been shipped to OEM devices using mobile device hardware. Most of the proprietary Google bits of Android are proprietary by choice, there's no way Google is going to be any more open with Fuchsia.
  - 5y ago