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I actually don’t mind one way or the other, but I just want a clear rationale for over riding the employees preference. I despise the water cooler theory becau

I actually don’t mind one way or the other, but I just want a clear rationale for over riding the employees preference. I despise the water cooler theory because I’m perfectly capable of socializing over voip or IM. I do it at work and then shortly afterwards with friends on discord. The real reasons for return to office should be tangible. If you have metrics that people are taking advantage, share them. The only thing I’ve seen so far is out of this world productivity increases.

cratermoon 5y ago
> I despise the water cooler theory because I’m perfectly capable of socializing over voip or IM Different people have different work styles. The water cooler theory is predicated on random, unplanned interactions, which are much harder over those channels. At the proverbial water cooler, an employee might engage with someone they had not planned to speak with, or maybe don't even know, and get some information or connection of value. Maybe you overhear* a couple of other people talking there and you join the conversation because the subject happens to impact you. I'm not sure how well that's replicated by Discord/Slack channels. After a year+ WFH during the Inside Times, I have come to see the value of at least quarterly, if not monthly, face-to-face team meetings or casual events. Of course, if you have employees in different cities, like west and east coast, you can't affordably meet very often. * I would hope people would not have a conversation that should be private in a public space, so being overheard is not a bad thing.
dheera 5y ago
It's also worth noting that there's a huge bias toward pure software engineers on HN. I do software, but I have to work with some large industrial hardware and it's so much easier to just have the hardware in front of you. Especially when you have to from time to time set up hardware that isn't even on the network yet. Telepresence just isn't there yet, and the quality of internet connections and videoconference tools still suck. I have dual 4K monitors and still get 720p feeds or worse on most videoconference tools, you can't even read a damn whiteboard with that, let alone push physical reset buttons or e-stop buttons on actual hardware.
- analog31 5y ago
  I also work on hardware. Oddly enough I moved my lab to my house when the pandemic hit, but I don't work with really huge or dangerous stuff. I think there's going to be an interesting dynamic when the hardware workers go back to the office and the software workers stay home. The tendency for the software department to become isolated from the rest of the business was already present before the pandemic, but may become more pronounced.
- tikhonj 5y ago
  I mean, that's a great example of a clear rationale! If my job required interacting with machinery or hardware that had to be centrally located, I wouldn't need to be "required" to come into the office any more than I'm "required" to use Git to manage my code—I'm a professional, and that's just part of what I do. The issue comes up with roles when that isn't the case. In most programming roles I would not have any clear reason to be in-person, and even if I did have times where I clearly needed to be in the office, I would not appreciate being forced to come in outside those times. Requirements like that are frustrating because they require a real cost on my end (less flexible schedule, less control over my environment, a commute) and simultaneously signal a fundamental lack of flexibility, respect and trust from my employer.
- ddingus 5y ago
  I do a mix of software, smaller scale hardware, larger hardware, and am spooling up manufacturing. So, right now I am in a lot, but no longer have an office. That is at home now, including enough gear to work on the small scale hardware. If I come in, you can find me in the shop. My senior firmware engineer and I work best together, but work very well remote too. So, I am going to move a machine here. We normally get together for a few days and will now just do it more regularly. I am the better tech anyway, and do enough software to make me a good working extension. We expect this to be a net gain. As that manufacturing spools up, I will WFH, only coming in when doing R&D, or to improve on or resolve manufacturing problems. Pre-pandemic, I traveled everywhere, hated it. That is gone now. Outside of software and other info heavy roles, having flexibility will be seen as a great thing. As we optimize the diverse tasks, we will work better, and have many options. One of my favorites is to get up at oh dark 30, work in the shop when there are no distractions and head home after lunch. Those are the days when I get the most physical work done, and or solve the worst problems.

cratermoon 5y ago

> I despise the water cooler theory because I’m perfectly capable of socializing over voip or IM Different people have different work styles. The water cooler theory is predicated on random, unplanned interactions, which are much harder over those channels. At the proverbial water cooler, an employee might engage with someone they had not planned to speak with, or maybe don't even know, and get some information or connection of value. Maybe you overhear* a couple of other people talking there and you join the conversation because the subject happens to impact you. I'm not sure how well that's replicated by Discord/Slack channels. After a year+ WFH during the Inside Times, I have come to see the value of at least quarterly, if not monthly, face-to-face team meetings or casual events. Of course, if you have employees in different cities, like west and east coast, you can't affordably meet very often. * I would hope people would not have a conversation that should be private in a public space, so being overheard is not a bad thing.

dheera 5y ago

It's also worth noting that there's a huge bias toward pure software engineers on HN. I do software, but I have to work with some large industrial hardware and it's so much easier to just have the hardware in front of you. Especially when you have to from time to time set up hardware that isn't even on the network yet. Telepresence just isn't there yet, and the quality of internet connections and videoconference tools still suck. I have dual 4K monitors and still get 720p feeds or worse on most videoconference tools, you can't even read a damn whiteboard with that, let alone push physical reset buttons or e-stop buttons on actual hardware.

analog31 5y ago
I also work on hardware. Oddly enough I moved my lab to my house when the pandemic hit, but I don't work with really huge or dangerous stuff. I think there's going to be an interesting dynamic when the hardware workers go back to the office and the software workers stay home. The tendency for the software department to become isolated from the rest of the business was already present before the pandemic, but may become more pronounced.
tikhonj 5y ago
I mean, that's a great example of a clear rationale! If my job required interacting with machinery or hardware that had to be centrally located, I wouldn't need to be "required" to come into the office any more than I'm "required" to use Git to manage my code—I'm a professional, and that's just part of what I do. The issue comes up with roles when that isn't the case. In most programming roles I would not have any clear reason to be in-person, and even if I did have times where I clearly needed to be in the office, I would not appreciate being forced to come in outside those times. Requirements like that are frustrating because they require a real cost on my end (less flexible schedule, less control over my environment, a commute) and simultaneously signal a fundamental lack of flexibility, respect and trust from my employer.
ddingus 5y ago
I do a mix of software, smaller scale hardware, larger hardware, and am spooling up manufacturing. So, right now I am in a lot, but no longer have an office. That is at home now, including enough gear to work on the small scale hardware. If I come in, you can find me in the shop. My senior firmware engineer and I work best together, but work very well remote too. So, I am going to move a machine here. We normally get together for a few days and will now just do it more regularly. I am the better tech anyway, and do enough software to make me a good working extension. We expect this to be a net gain. As that manufacturing spools up, I will WFH, only coming in when doing R&D, or to improve on or resolve manufacturing problems. Pre-pandemic, I traveled everywhere, hated it. That is gone now. Outside of software and other info heavy roles, having flexibility will be seen as a great thing. As we optimize the diverse tasks, we will work better, and have many options. One of my favorites is to get up at oh dark 30, work in the shop when there are no distractions and head home after lunch. Those are the days when I get the most physical work done, and or solve the worst problems.