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You can live a completely healthy and nutritionally complete plant based life style though, and without consuming your body weight in anything. So if we don’t _

You can live a completely healthy and nutritionally complete plant based life style though, and without consuming your body weight in anything. So if we don’t _need_ the animals to die for us, killing them is immoral. It’s immoral because it’s unnecessary.

darksaints 5y ago
"Completely healthy and nutritionally complete" debatable. Vegan diets are discouraged significantly for pregnant women and children because of how damaging calcium, zinc, and B12 deficiencies can be during that time. And even if you aren't a pregnant woman or child, you still have to deal with the various deficiencies that come with that, typically by eating very targeted foods or highly processed and manufactured supplements that also have problems, such as availability, allergies, cost, or simple difficulty incorporating into diets (e.g. you can't exactly use algae oil like you would olive oil, you can't sprinkle flaxseed on everything). And speak for yourself with regards to morality. Humans evolved as omnivorous creatures, just like millions of other species. I feel no moral obligation to eliminate animal food sources from my diet. The opposite, in fact. Because a vegan diet is effectively an abandonment of culture. I'm not going to stop making Pasteis De Nata or Caldo Verde simply because you feel bad for the animals. Letting my culture wither away like that is a far bigger sin in my eyes than eating animal-derived foods, which we evolved to do.
- sweetheart 5y ago
  The American Dietetic Association explicitly says a vegan diet is safe and appropriate for all stages of life, including pregnancy specifically, so you’re just wrong about that. Also, cultures change and evolve. It was also a part of past cultures to do all manner of inhumane things, and we are all better off for deciding to stop. Simply saying something is a part of culture doesn’t give it a free pass. Watch what happens to animals in slaughterhouses, and you’ll see why I don’t think preparing Caldo Verde is really super important in comparison: https://youtu.be/7Y_FHhByhBk https://youtu.be/7Y_FHhByhBk
  - darksaints 5y ago
    No, they don't say that they it is safe and appropriate for all stages of life. They say it can be. That comes with a long list of caveats related to common nutritional deficiencies...some of which are far more serious for some people (such as pregnant women and children) than others. Addressing those deficiencies is hard to do for all people for a multitude of reasons, some of which have already been listed. Again, speak for yourself about morality. I feel no moral obligation to not be an omnivore. I do feel a moral obligation to pass down my culture to my children.
    - sweetheart 5y ago
      Any diet can be unhealthy. Regardless of whether or not you’re vegan you need to ensure you’re getting your vitamins and minerals. And it’s not very difficult to get those on a vegan diet. There are LOADS of resources to refer to. For example: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/the-vegan-diet/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/the-vegan-diet/
      - darksaints 5y ago
        Yes, actually, it is. Omnivorous diets can be unhealthy, but not due to nutrition deficiency. The problems with those diets are all solved with moderation. Vegan diets have to deal with nutrient deficiency. Filling gaps in nutrition deficiency takes targeted food intake or supplements. Those aren't always available or cheap. People have food allergies that can eliminate them as candidates. They are hard to incorporate into existing diets and available foods. I find it a lot more morally objectionable that your privileged culture-less self would pretend to know what's better for the rest of humanity than they are capable of determining for themselves. There's a reason people who care about food refer to vegans with names like the "Hezbollah of vegetarians". You're not diet advocates, you're religious extremists.
        sweetheart 5y ago
        A diet is not implicitly nutrient complete simply because it contains animal products. You can still easily miss out on nutrients. All diets require ensuring that you have access to important vitamins and minerals. Like I said and showed, you can get all these things without eating animals products. You’re saying that I have no culture and that I’m a religious extremist (which seems contradictory a bit) for saying that you can get all the vitamins and minerals you need from non-animal sources. That seems a little disingenuous and ad-hominem, no?
EvilEy3 5y ago
How is that immoral if I want tasty meat?
- sweetheart 5y ago
  Because I believe it’s immoral to cause needless suffering. Effectively all meat is the result of animals being tortured and killed for our ephemeral satisfaction while eating a meal, and not because we need it to survive. Causing that level of suffering because it taste good is wrong imho. I link to a couple videos in this comment section that show what I mean. You should watch them and decide if you think a sentient creature should experience those things because you like how it tastes.
  - cheese_goddess 5y ago
    > How is that immoral if I want tasty meat? > Because I believe it’s immoral to cause needless suffering. It's immoral for the OP to eat meat because you believe it's immmoral? Also, if you think that the need for tasty food, or any food, is trivial, you haven't been around animals much. The ones I know, and I don't mean only the humans, go absolutely batshit insane at the thought of food. A few days ago one of the cats over here gave birth and I realised what is that keening noise adult cats make when they beg for food: it's the same noise the kittens make when they want their mother to breastfeed them. The dogs, a solemn matriarch and her huge son start jumping up and down and cry like little puppies when it's time for food. The cats mob us everytime we step out of the house, just on the off chance we'll drop some tasty morsel. The goats used to not come near me and my friend, but then we fed them a couple of times and now they gallop to us when we enter their enclosure. The chickens catapult themselves from their perches and run like little raptor dragsters when we take them scraps to recycle (there's nothing I've seen that looks more awkward than a chicken running). A small, grey-speckled hen that I fed once or twice now runs to me whenever it sees me because it has forever now associated me with food. Animals are crazy for food. And so are humans, because we, too, are animals and there's no use trying to shame people with facile moralising, humans have bodies that go absolutely nuts for tasty food and that food includes the meat of other animals. Edit: vegans are no different. Here's three interviews with three ex-vegan "influencers" and writers, who quit because they just couldn't stand it: https://www.womenshealthmag.com/food/a32211871/vegan-influencers-who-quit/ https://www.womenshealthmag.com/food/a32211871/vegan-influen... I have a few friends who were very vocal vegans, who later started eating animal products again. It's always made me wonder just how many vegans switch back to at least vegetarian diets, after a few years. I looked around, but there's not much in the way of good scholarship on the subject. Anyway, every vegan has the option of going back to eating meat whenever they decide it (one can even "take breaks" and enjoy some meat once in a rare while, then go right back to their fierce advocacy of veganism) which to me makes a lot of the claims about moral superiority a little empty. It's very easy to preach, but who knows exactly what vegans actually eat?

darksaints 5y ago

"Completely healthy and nutritionally complete" debatable. Vegan diets are discouraged significantly for pregnant women and children because of how damaging calcium, zinc, and B12 deficiencies can be during that time. And even if you aren't a pregnant woman or child, you still have to deal with the various deficiencies that come with that, typically by eating very targeted foods or highly processed and manufactured supplements that also have problems, such as availability, allergies, cost, or simple difficulty incorporating into diets (e.g. you can't exactly use algae oil like you would olive oil, you can't sprinkle flaxseed on everything). And speak for yourself with regards to morality. Humans evolved as omnivorous creatures, just like millions of other species. I feel no moral obligation to eliminate animal food sources from my diet. The opposite, in fact. Because a vegan diet is effectively an abandonment of culture. I'm not going to stop making Pasteis De Nata or Caldo Verde simply because you feel bad for the animals. Letting my culture wither away like that is a far bigger sin in my eyes than eating animal-derived foods, which we evolved to do.

sweetheart 5y ago
The American Dietetic Association explicitly says a vegan diet is safe and appropriate for all stages of life, including pregnancy specifically, so you’re just wrong about that. Also, cultures change and evolve. It was also a part of past cultures to do all manner of inhumane things, and we are all better off for deciding to stop. Simply saying something is a part of culture doesn’t give it a free pass. Watch what happens to animals in slaughterhouses, and you’ll see why I don’t think preparing Caldo Verde is really super important in comparison: https://youtu.be/7Y_FHhByhBk https://youtu.be/7Y_FHhByhBk
- darksaints 5y ago
  No, they don't say that they it is safe and appropriate for all stages of life. They say it can be. That comes with a long list of caveats related to common nutritional deficiencies...some of which are far more serious for some people (such as pregnant women and children) than others. Addressing those deficiencies is hard to do for all people for a multitude of reasons, some of which have already been listed. Again, speak for yourself about morality. I feel no moral obligation to not be an omnivore. I do feel a moral obligation to pass down my culture to my children.
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    Any diet can be unhealthy. Regardless of whether or not you’re vegan you need to ensure you’re getting your vitamins and minerals. And it’s not very difficult to get those on a vegan diet. There are LOADS of resources to refer to. For example: https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/the-vegan-diet/ https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/eat-well/the-vegan-diet/
    - darksaints 5y ago
      Yes, actually, it is. Omnivorous diets can be unhealthy, but not due to nutrition deficiency. The problems with those diets are all solved with moderation. Vegan diets have to deal with nutrient deficiency. Filling gaps in nutrition deficiency takes targeted food intake or supplements. Those aren't always available or cheap. People have food allergies that can eliminate them as candidates. They are hard to incorporate into existing diets and available foods. I find it a lot more morally objectionable that your privileged culture-less self would pretend to know what's better for the rest of humanity than they are capable of determining for themselves. There's a reason people who care about food refer to vegans with names like the "Hezbollah of vegetarians". You're not diet advocates, you're religious extremists.
      - sweetheart 5y ago
        A diet is not implicitly nutrient complete simply because it contains animal products. You can still easily miss out on nutrients. All diets require ensuring that you have access to important vitamins and minerals. Like I said and showed, you can get all these things without eating animals products. You’re saying that I have no culture and that I’m a religious extremist (which seems contradictory a bit) for saying that you can get all the vitamins and minerals you need from non-animal sources. That seems a little disingenuous and ad-hominem, no?

EvilEy3 5y ago

How is that immoral if I want tasty meat?

sweetheart 5y ago
Because I believe it’s immoral to cause needless suffering. Effectively all meat is the result of animals being tortured and killed for our ephemeral satisfaction while eating a meal, and not because we need it to survive. Causing that level of suffering because it taste good is wrong imho. I link to a couple videos in this comment section that show what I mean. You should watch them and decide if you think a sentient creature should experience those things because you like how it tastes.
- cheese_goddess 5y ago
  > How is that immoral if I want tasty meat? > Because I believe it’s immoral to cause needless suffering. It's immoral for the OP to eat meat because you believe it's immmoral? Also, if you think that the need for tasty food, or any food, is trivial, you haven't been around animals much. The ones I know, and I don't mean only the humans, go absolutely batshit insane at the thought of food. A few days ago one of the cats over here gave birth and I realised what is that keening noise adult cats make when they beg for food: it's the same noise the kittens make when they want their mother to breastfeed them. The dogs, a solemn matriarch and her huge son start jumping up and down and cry like little puppies when it's time for food. The cats mob us everytime we step out of the house, just on the off chance we'll drop some tasty morsel. The goats used to not come near me and my friend, but then we fed them a couple of times and now they gallop to us when we enter their enclosure. The chickens catapult themselves from their perches and run like little raptor dragsters when we take them scraps to recycle (there's nothing I've seen that looks more awkward than a chicken running). A small, grey-speckled hen that I fed once or twice now runs to me whenever it sees me because it has forever now associated me with food. Animals are crazy for food. And so are humans, because we, too, are animals and there's no use trying to shame people with facile moralising, humans have bodies that go absolutely nuts for tasty food and that food includes the meat of other animals. Edit: vegans are no different. Here's three interviews with three ex-vegan "influencers" and writers, who quit because they just couldn't stand it: https://www.womenshealthmag.com/food/a32211871/vegan-influencers-who-quit/ https://www.womenshealthmag.com/food/a32211871/vegan-influen... I have a few friends who were very vocal vegans, who later started eating animal products again. It's always made me wonder just how many vegans switch back to at least vegetarian diets, after a few years. I looked around, but there's not much in the way of good scholarship on the subject. Anyway, every vegan has the option of going back to eating meat whenever they decide it (one can even "take breaks" and enjoy some meat once in a rare while, then go right back to their fierce advocacy of veganism) which to me makes a lot of the claims about moral superiority a little empty. It's very easy to preach, but who knows exactly what vegans actually eat?