4 ms·

Seems like some folks like simple stuff because they feel more included in the magic of it all. Kinda like.. some folks like manual-transmission cars with simp

by _Nat_ 5y ago

Seems like some folks like simple stuff because they feel more included in the magic of it all. Kinda like.. some folks like manual-transmission cars with simple constructions that they can modify. Or machine-code/assembly. Or building their own computer. Because then they're not just a user -- an outsider to those who've actually created the technology -- but rather a fellow creator and equal participant. Projects like this give me the same vibe. This is, I'm skeptical that anyone's doing this because it's practical, even in its minimalism -- instead, it seems more like a hobbyist project where folks can feel included.

app4soft 5y ago
> Seems like some folks like simple stuff because they feel more included in the magic of it all. Gemini vs. HTTP ~ HN vs. Reddit
- iSnow 5y ago
  Wait, I like HN very much, but that's just wrong. HN is basically what one tech-subreddit would be. This is fine, but not very inclusive, just because it is focused. People also like Facebook which is far from simple stuff. Inclusiveness via simplicity is just one axis in the space of why people like things.
  - coldtea 5y ago
    >This is fine, but not very inclusive, just because it is focused That's neither here, nor there though. You can have 20,000 other individual Hacker News style sites on every subject, and the simplicity would still be there on each individual one. Not every thing has to be everything to everybody, for the category of the thing to be inclusive. And Gemini is not like content or like a speficifically-themed website like HN, it's a content delivery format (like HTTP/Gopher/etc). The allusion between Gemini to HN was for the simplicity of the presentation, wasn't referring to the kind of content HN carries. In a site's with HN design the content could still be whatever, from whaling to development, and from rocket science to religious practices. (If anything, something like Gemini would be much easier to make inclusive to e.g. low powered devices in the developing world, or screen readers, compared to the modern ultra dynamic news and content websites that have tons of moving parts, trackers, popups, interstitials, animations, and random JS just to deliver news and text content).
  - astrobe_ 5y ago
    > HN is basically what one tech-subreddit would be Not really. It may have been true ten years ago, but during that time Reddit has slowly accreted "features" (Reddit gifts, Reddit Premium, sponsored contents, a chat...) whereas HN didn't.
    - app4soft 5y ago
      > Reddit has slowly accreted "features" (Reddit gifts, Reddit Premium, sponsored contents, a chat...) whereas HN didn't. Also there are NO native media (video/GIF, images, photo albums) support & linked media previews on HN too. Additionally users on HN has no any administration or moderation rights.
xwolfi 5y ago
I think you like manual because that's all you know at first but when you try a hill start in an automatic the first time you're sold on its comfort. Now the next step is deciding wether you enjoy the precise control of the manual vs the liberating comfort of the automatic. I d argue that a tiptronic like solution that does both is perfect and should be default in all cars. But then it s a matter of cost. At least you're totally wrong thinking we buy manual because they're simple enough we can modify them :D We're 70M people where I come from, 95% of cars are manual, never ever heard this one.
- _Nat_ 5y ago
  It's that "precise control of the manual" that's enabling. Presumably we'll see the same thing with fully self-driving cars in the future. This is, a mature self-driving technology should eventually out-perform (unmodified) humans, but even then, when there's no argument for manual-driving's practicality, some folks'd probably want to drive manually anyway.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- _wldu 5y ago
  Manual transmissions are very rare in the USA now. Most auto manufacturers don't use them anymore (even in trucks). And the few that do, only do so in certain models that have to be ordered. I bought a manual in 2019. I had to drive to another state to get it. That was the last year the car I bought came with an option for a manual.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >At least you're totally wrong thinking we buy manual because they're simple enough we can modify them :D We're 70M people where I come from, 95% of cars are manual, never ever heard this one. And 400M people with manual in Europe, where an equal share (95% or so) is manual. And 99% of the people seldom if ever "modify" or hot-rod their cars. That's more of an American thing, in the country where they have the automatics as the first choice.
  - 5y ago
bayindirh 5y ago
Liking simplicity is not always about being "included in the magic" IMHO (but it's a very valid and fine point). My observation is simple stuff is generally less wasteful and designed with different set of goals. The simple stuff I particularly like lasts a lifetime, its maintenance is minimal and doesn't lock you into a single ecosystem. Since these items are used for much longer than their modern counterparts, they become yours more. On the digital realm, simple stuff is less distracting, works faster, is not short on essential features and can do 95% of the more complicated stuff with minimal overhead. At the end of the day, people may like simple stuff more because it does most of the work done by the complicated thing with much less mental load. Funnily, sometimes the simpler stuff actually does more than the complicated one.
coldtea 5y ago
>Seems like some folks like simple stuff because they feel more included in the magic of it all. Or, well, because: (a) it's more resilient (and they already have lost tons of formats of the last 40 years that can only be read with emulators now) (b) it's simpler (c) it does what they want (document web) without bloat (d) it's hella fast (e) it's light on resources So, it's not "kinda like some folks like manual-transmission cars", but more like "some folks like a toaster that it's not internet connected with 30 toast programs and 5 buttons", or to squeeze their own orange packs without a $400 Juicer [1], or they like the plain old Hacker News webpage and not some social media sharing monstrocity with 200 options, and prefer static file serving instead of a CMS+Database+... Gemini might not be practical, but that's because the majority wont know about it, as it wont be pushed by companies, and thus it wont be adopted in any large numbers (heck, advertising wise, it's against the whole FAANG model). I don't have any plans on hacking with it, but I was looking for something like Gopher-revived to cut back on web bloat, years before Gemini started. That said, I'd prefer if it could somehow be part of the web (not another server/protocol, but a forcefully cut-down web - maybe with something like a HTML's version of Javascript's "strict mode" - when that would be toggled, only a minimal set of HTML and no JS would be supported). [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-04-19/silicon-valley-s-400-juicer-may-be-feeling-the-squeeze https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-04-19/silicon-v...
II2II 5y ago
People are attracted to Gemini for different reasons. While feeling included in the magic of it all may appeal to those developing clients, servers, or sites but it won't mean much to those who simply want to read what others have to say. In my case, I appreciate the environment it creates while reading. It is more like reading a book. The text is front and center, progression is mostly linear, and the visual transition between sites is less jarring. Minimalism is nice in the sense that it makes the experience more cohesive, rather than being an end in itself.
selfhoster11 5y ago
> Kinda like.. some folks like manual-transmission cars with simple constructions that they can modify. Let me give you my perspective: the modern web client experience is that of a sturdy, advanced alien spaceship. It gets you from A to B and knows how to dock to all the popular alien space station airlock models automatically (aka all the HTTP/2/3/TLS/cookies, stuff that's expected by sites to work). You chuck plenty of fuel at it (RAM and CPU) and cross your fingers that it lifts off. If you prod the wrong part of the (browser) engine, the universal constants change and you get turned inside out. You still occasionally do it because the ship can be made to block all the alien ads once you're on the space station. Gemini is just an old ICE car with an antigrav module bolted on (the TLS engine). Its construction is simple enough that you can hold it in your head. It doesn't change the universal constants when you prod the wrong part of the engine, so it's refreshingly free of the risk of turning inside out. It goes into space just fine, but doesn't know how to dock on the alien space stations. This is fine - you knew that from the start, and the new human space stations are where all the quirky fun stuff is happening anyway. And the human space stations have no ads, for now.

by _Nat_ 5y ago

app4soft 5y ago

> Seems like some folks like simple stuff because they feel more included in the magic of it all. Gemini vs. HTTP ~ HN vs. Reddit

iSnow 5y ago
Wait, I like HN very much, but that's just wrong. HN is basically what one tech-subreddit would be. This is fine, but not very inclusive, just because it is focused. People also like Facebook which is far from simple stuff. Inclusiveness via simplicity is just one axis in the space of why people like things.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >This is fine, but not very inclusive, just because it is focused That's neither here, nor there though. You can have 20,000 other individual Hacker News style sites on every subject, and the simplicity would still be there on each individual one. Not every thing has to be everything to everybody, for the category of the thing to be inclusive. And Gemini is not like content or like a speficifically-themed website like HN, it's a content delivery format (like HTTP/Gopher/etc). The allusion between Gemini to HN was for the simplicity of the presentation, wasn't referring to the kind of content HN carries. In a site's with HN design the content could still be whatever, from whaling to development, and from rocket science to religious practices. (If anything, something like Gemini would be much easier to make inclusive to e.g. low powered devices in the developing world, or screen readers, compared to the modern ultra dynamic news and content websites that have tons of moving parts, trackers, popups, interstitials, animations, and random JS just to deliver news and text content).
- astrobe_ 5y ago
  > HN is basically what one tech-subreddit would be Not really. It may have been true ten years ago, but during that time Reddit has slowly accreted "features" (Reddit gifts, Reddit Premium, sponsored contents, a chat...) whereas HN didn't.
  - app4soft 5y ago
    > Reddit has slowly accreted "features" (Reddit gifts, Reddit Premium, sponsored contents, a chat...) whereas HN didn't. Also there are NO native media (video/GIF, images, photo albums) support & linked media previews on HN too. Additionally users on HN has no any administration or moderation rights.

xwolfi 5y ago

I think you like manual because that's all you know at first but when you try a hill start in an automatic the first time you're sold on its comfort. Now the next step is deciding wether you enjoy the precise control of the manual vs the liberating comfort of the automatic. I d argue that a tiptronic like solution that does both is perfect and should be default in all cars. But then it s a matter of cost. At least you're totally wrong thinking we buy manual because they're simple enough we can modify them :D We're 70M people where I come from, 95% of cars are manual, never ever heard this one.

_Nat_ 5y ago
It's that "precise control of the manual" that's enabling. Presumably we'll see the same thing with fully self-driving cars in the future. This is, a mature self-driving technology should eventually out-perform (unmodified) humans, but even then, when there's no argument for manual-driving's practicality, some folks'd probably want to drive manually anyway.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
_wldu 5y ago
Manual transmissions are very rare in the USA now. Most auto manufacturers don't use them anymore (even in trucks). And the few that do, only do so in certain models that have to be ordered. I bought a manual in 2019. I had to drive to another state to get it. That was the last year the car I bought came with an option for a manual.
coldtea 5y ago
>At least you're totally wrong thinking we buy manual because they're simple enough we can modify them :D We're 70M people where I come from, 95% of cars are manual, never ever heard this one. And 400M people with manual in Europe, where an equal share (95% or so) is manual. And 99% of the people seldom if ever "modify" or hot-rod their cars. That's more of an American thing, in the country where they have the automatics as the first choice.
- 5y ago

bayindirh 5y ago

Liking simplicity is not always about being "included in the magic" IMHO (but it's a very valid and fine point). My observation is simple stuff is generally less wasteful and designed with different set of goals. The simple stuff I particularly like lasts a lifetime, its maintenance is minimal and doesn't lock you into a single ecosystem. Since these items are used for much longer than their modern counterparts, they become yours more. On the digital realm, simple stuff is less distracting, works faster, is not short on essential features and can do 95% of the more complicated stuff with minimal overhead. At the end of the day, people may like simple stuff more because it does most of the work done by the complicated thing with much less mental load. Funnily, sometimes the simpler stuff actually does more than the complicated one.

coldtea 5y ago

>Seems like some folks like simple stuff because they feel more included in the magic of it all. Or, well, because: (a) it's more resilient (and they already have lost tons of formats of the last 40 years that can only be read with emulators now) (b) it's simpler (c) it does what they want (document web) without bloat (d) it's hella fast (e) it's light on resources So, it's not "kinda like some folks like manual-transmission cars", but more like "some folks like a toaster that it's not internet connected with 30 toast programs and 5 buttons", or to squeeze their own orange packs without a $400 Juicer [1], or they like the plain old Hacker News webpage and not some social media sharing monstrocity with 200 options, and prefer static file serving instead of a CMS+Database+... Gemini might not be practical, but that's because the majority wont know about it, as it wont be pushed by companies, and thus it wont be adopted in any large numbers (heck, advertising wise, it's against the whole FAANG model). I don't have any plans on hacking with it, but I was looking for something like Gopher-revived to cut back on web bloat, years before Gemini started. That said, I'd prefer if it could somehow be part of the web (not another server/protocol, but a forcefully cut-down web - maybe with something like a HTML's version of Javascript's "strict mode" - when that would be toggled, only a minimal set of HTML and no JS would be supported). [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-04-19/silicon-valley-s-400-juicer-may-be-feeling-the-squeeze https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2017-04-19/silicon-v...

II2II 5y ago

People are attracted to Gemini for different reasons. While feeling included in the magic of it all may appeal to those developing clients, servers, or sites but it won't mean much to those who simply want to read what others have to say. In my case, I appreciate the environment it creates while reading. It is more like reading a book. The text is front and center, progression is mostly linear, and the visual transition between sites is less jarring. Minimalism is nice in the sense that it makes the experience more cohesive, rather than being an end in itself.

selfhoster11 5y ago

> Kinda like.. some folks like manual-transmission cars with simple constructions that they can modify. Let me give you my perspective: the modern web client experience is that of a sturdy, advanced alien spaceship. It gets you from A to B and knows how to dock to all the popular alien space station airlock models automatically (aka all the HTTP/2/3/TLS/cookies, stuff that's expected by sites to work). You chuck plenty of fuel at it (RAM and CPU) and cross your fingers that it lifts off. If you prod the wrong part of the (browser) engine, the universal constants change and you get turned inside out. You still occasionally do it because the ship can be made to block all the alien ads once you're on the space station. Gemini is just an old ICE car with an antigrav module bolted on (the TLS engine). Its construction is simple enough that you can hold it in your head. It doesn't change the universal constants when you prod the wrong part of the engine, so it's refreshingly free of the risk of turning inside out. It goes into space just fine, but doesn't know how to dock on the alien space stations. This is fine - you knew that from the start, and the new human space stations are where all the quirky fun stuff is happening anyway. And the human space stations have no ads, for now.