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Why a whole new protocol? Why not start a collective of like-minded users who design plain HTML/CSS websites that work for users who have JS disabled by defaul

Why a whole new protocol? Why not start a collective of like-minded users who design plain HTML/CSS websites that work for users who have JS disabled by default? As far as I can tell that would be a strict improvement over Gemini.

josephg 5y ago
Probably. But you can see what would happen - without a new protocol or new document structure, traditional web browsers would work with the system. And because of that it wouldn't have an identity outside "the web, but worse". Gemini's different protocol isn't important for technical reasons. Its important for social reasons - to make it effortful to move content to gemini, and effortful for users to start using it. The result is that all the content and users on gemini are people who have done work to opted in to it. And the space populated by small community like that will necessarily end up different from the culture on the web. (If they were happy with the web, they would have stayed there.)
- krapp 5y ago
  >And the space populated by small community like that will necessarily end up different from the culture on the web. (If they were happy with the web, they would have stayed there.) But they have stayed there. Gemini users still use the modern web all the time, mostly to remind everyone that they exist and are rejecting the modern web so hard you guys.
  - selfhoster11 5y ago
    Well duh. If you have a race bike, of course you'll also keep a metro pass or a car. You still need to get places. But the race bike is your instrument of leisure and a place to unwind. This role cannot be fulfilled by a car or a metro pass for some people, because it just doesn't have the same relaxed atmosphere.
    - kstrauser 5y ago
      That’s an excellent analogy. I make my living building web stuff. When I get home, I want to play with other things as a hobby. I also have a ham radio license, but that doesn’t mean I only want to use that instead of the gigabit Internet drop at my house.
      - josephg 5y ago
        Yep absolutely. Another way to think about it is that using the web doesn't mean we delete all our local native apps. As users we don't gather into camps who only use one type of software or another. Modern computing environments are mixed spaces full of all sorts of different kinds of software. It very rarely makes sense to be exclusionary or exclusive about any particular type. Gemini is no different. There's overlap with the web's use cases, but its its own thing. As a user, why not both?
        krapp 5y ago
        >Gemini is no different. There's overlap with the web's use cases, but its its own thing. As a user, why not both? What does Gemini have to offer to web users that the web itself doesn't? It's entirely possible to write small, simple HTML documents without javascript on the web. Indeed, one could replace Gemini entirely with a Geocities-like service that enforced the same rules, including only allowing linking within the platform. Alongside the web, Gemini is just a worse version of the web, it isn't different enough to be its own thing, nor does it offer anything unique. Gemini only makes sense as a means of forging a separate identity from and exclusionary of the web, as you yourself said in the original comment I replied to[0]: (If they were happy with the web, they would have stayed there.) [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27491175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27491175
foobar33333 5y ago
Because its easier to create an in group of sites which follow the same standard. Gemini sites will link to other gemini links only which you know will be minimal before clicking.
- coldtea 5y ago
  That's trivial to do in participating "minimal web code" group too. You could e.g. color the links to other participating sites to highlight them (and still have the option to link to a conventional bloated website).
hollerith 5y ago
One advantage of Gemini is that it is easier to attract new users to the cause: even if a particular user is being helped by the collective you describe, he or she probably won't realize (because most users are oblivious to many/most of the effects of UI and architectural design decisions). He or she will ascribe the good experience provided by the collective to the web. The web is like a badly architected government such that most citizens are unaware of the badness. The collective you describe is like a group who use their own awareness of the badness to improve the country, but that does raise awareness of the government's badness whereas starting fresh by founding a new country does. Actually, the analogy I just gave is a little too harsh on the web. A more charitable description is that a subset of the web's users is poorly served by the architecture of the web, but most of that subset is unaware of that fact (what with not being experts on the effects of subtle technical decisions on something as vast, open and complex as the internet). I am not defending Gemini in particular; I use it but have yet to form an opinion of it; I am defending the strategy of founding a new internet service to compete (for the time and attention of users) with the web.
- coldtea 5y ago
  >One advantage of Gemini is that it is easier to attract new users to the cause: even if a particular user is being helped by the collective you describe, he or she probably won't realize (because most users are oblivious to many/most of the effects of UI and architectural design decisions). He or she will ascribe the good experience provided by the collective to the web. I don't buy this argument. Even if "he/she ascribes the good experience (...) to the web": (a) the subset of users that could fell into one of the "participating sites" would be much larger than the subset of users that would install something like Gemini. The subset is open with no barrier at all to every web user. They just need to visit a page. The second subset requires them to have heard about Gemini, to care enough about it, and to actively download a client. (b) For this reason, even the subset of (a) that could tell "Ahh, this site is fast and nice because it's simple web code" would be much larger than the subset that would install something like Gemini. (c) If the subset that recognizes the benefits from the simple web design designs to join the movement, they just need to code simple html and deliver to everybody (an easy sell, no new tools needed). For the subset that discovered and likes Gemini, they'd need to find a host and install a Gemini server (much fewer options, no turnkey-host that supports it, unknown code quantity/quality), and then their potential audience is severely limited to Gemini client users (a much harder sell).
yoz-y 5y ago
You could also build a community around a static site generator (and maybe a hosted version), where everybody would pledge to not customise anything except a set of offered css variables. Then federate those blogs somehow. Though I somehow doubt that such a community would stay “pure” for long.
rakoo 5y ago
The faq answers your question: => https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi > 2.5 Why not just use a subset of HTTP and HTML? > Many people are confused as to why it's worth creating a new protocol to address perceived problems with optional, non-essential features of the web. Just because websites can track users and run CPU-hogging Javsacript and pull in useless multi-megabyte header images or even larger autoplaying videos, doesn't mean they have to. Why not just build non-evil websites using the existing technology? > Of course, this is possible. "The Gemini experience" is roughly equivalent to HTTP where the only request header is "Host" and the only response header is "Content-type" and HTML where the only tags are <p>, <pre>, <a>, <h1> through <h3>, <ul> and <li> and <blockquote> - and the https://gemini.circumlunar.space https://gemini.circumlunar.space website offers pretty much this experience. We know it can be done. > The problem is that deciding upon a strictly limited subset of HTTP and HTML, slapping a label on it and calling it a day would do almost nothing to create a clearly demarcated space where people can go to consume only that kind of content in only that kind of way. It's impossible to know in advance whether what's on the other side of a https:// https:// URL will be within the subset or outside it. It's very tedious to verify that a website claiming to use only the subset actually does, as many of the features we want to avoid are invisible (but not harmless!) to the user. It's difficult or even impossible to deactivate support for all the unwanted features in mainstream browsers, so if somebody breaks the rules you'll pay the consequences. Writing a dumbed down web browser which gracefully ignores all the unwanted features is much harder than writing a Gemini client from scratch. Even if you did it, you'd have a very difficult time discovering the minuscule fraction of websites it could render. > Alternative, simple-by-design protocols like Gopher and Gemini create alternative, simple-by-design spaces with obvious boundaries and hard restrictions. You know for sure when you enter Geminispace, and you can know for sure and in advance when following a certain link will cause you leave it. While you're there, you know for sure and in advance that everybody else there is playing by the same rules. You can relax and get on with your browsing, and follow links to sites you've never heard of before, which just popped up yesterday, and be confident that they won't try to track you or serve you garbage because they can't. You can do all this with a client you wrote yourself, so you know you can trust it. It's a very different, much more liberating and much more empowering experience than trying to carve out a tiny, invisible sub-sub-sub-sub-space of the web.
alexwennerberg 5y ago
People have said this for years, and yet, no such formal community has been created, while Gemini only grows in popularity. I think such a community would be great, but it's hard to maintain a strict separation with the "rest of the web" in the way that Gemini has.

josephg 5y ago

Probably. But you can see what would happen - without a new protocol or new document structure, traditional web browsers would work with the system. And because of that it wouldn't have an identity outside "the web, but worse". Gemini's different protocol isn't important for technical reasons. Its important for social reasons - to make it effortful to move content to gemini, and effortful for users to start using it. The result is that all the content and users on gemini are people who have done work to opted in to it. And the space populated by small community like that will necessarily end up different from the culture on the web. (If they were happy with the web, they would have stayed there.)

krapp 5y ago
>And the space populated by small community like that will necessarily end up different from the culture on the web. (If they were happy with the web, they would have stayed there.) But they have stayed there. Gemini users still use the modern web all the time, mostly to remind everyone that they exist and are rejecting the modern web so hard you guys.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  Well duh. If you have a race bike, of course you'll also keep a metro pass or a car. You still need to get places. But the race bike is your instrument of leisure and a place to unwind. This role cannot be fulfilled by a car or a metro pass for some people, because it just doesn't have the same relaxed atmosphere.
  - kstrauser 5y ago
    That’s an excellent analogy. I make my living building web stuff. When I get home, I want to play with other things as a hobby. I also have a ham radio license, but that doesn’t mean I only want to use that instead of the gigabit Internet drop at my house.
    - josephg 5y ago
      Yep absolutely. Another way to think about it is that using the web doesn't mean we delete all our local native apps. As users we don't gather into camps who only use one type of software or another. Modern computing environments are mixed spaces full of all sorts of different kinds of software. It very rarely makes sense to be exclusionary or exclusive about any particular type. Gemini is no different. There's overlap with the web's use cases, but its its own thing. As a user, why not both?
      - krapp 5y ago
        >Gemini is no different. There's overlap with the web's use cases, but its its own thing. As a user, why not both? What does Gemini have to offer to web users that the web itself doesn't? It's entirely possible to write small, simple HTML documents without javascript on the web. Indeed, one could replace Gemini entirely with a Geocities-like service that enforced the same rules, including only allowing linking within the platform. Alongside the web, Gemini is just a worse version of the web, it isn't different enough to be its own thing, nor does it offer anything unique. Gemini only makes sense as a means of forging a separate identity from and exclusionary of the web, as you yourself said in the original comment I replied to[0]: (If they were happy with the web, they would have stayed there.) [0]https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27491175 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27491175

foobar33333 5y ago

Because its easier to create an in group of sites which follow the same standard. Gemini sites will link to other gemini links only which you know will be minimal before clicking.

coldtea 5y ago
That's trivial to do in participating "minimal web code" group too. You could e.g. color the links to other participating sites to highlight them (and still have the option to link to a conventional bloated website).

hollerith 5y ago

One advantage of Gemini is that it is easier to attract new users to the cause: even if a particular user is being helped by the collective you describe, he or she probably won't realize (because most users are oblivious to many/most of the effects of UI and architectural design decisions). He or she will ascribe the good experience provided by the collective to the web. The web is like a badly architected government such that most citizens are unaware of the badness. The collective you describe is like a group who use their own awareness of the badness to improve the country, but that does raise awareness of the government's badness whereas starting fresh by founding a new country does. Actually, the analogy I just gave is a little too harsh on the web. A more charitable description is that a subset of the web's users is poorly served by the architecture of the web, but most of that subset is unaware of that fact (what with not being experts on the effects of subtle technical decisions on something as vast, open and complex as the internet). I am not defending Gemini in particular; I use it but have yet to form an opinion of it; I am defending the strategy of founding a new internet service to compete (for the time and attention of users) with the web.

coldtea 5y ago
>One advantage of Gemini is that it is easier to attract new users to the cause: even if a particular user is being helped by the collective you describe, he or she probably won't realize (because most users are oblivious to many/most of the effects of UI and architectural design decisions). He or she will ascribe the good experience provided by the collective to the web. I don't buy this argument. Even if "he/she ascribes the good experience (...) to the web": (a) the subset of users that could fell into one of the "participating sites" would be much larger than the subset of users that would install something like Gemini. The subset is open with no barrier at all to every web user. They just need to visit a page. The second subset requires them to have heard about Gemini, to care enough about it, and to actively download a client. (b) For this reason, even the subset of (a) that could tell "Ahh, this site is fast and nice because it's simple web code" would be much larger than the subset that would install something like Gemini. (c) If the subset that recognizes the benefits from the simple web design designs to join the movement, they just need to code simple html and deliver to everybody (an easy sell, no new tools needed). For the subset that discovered and likes Gemini, they'd need to find a host and install a Gemini server (much fewer options, no turnkey-host that supports it, unknown code quantity/quality), and then their potential audience is severely limited to Gemini client users (a much harder sell).

yoz-y 5y ago

You could also build a community around a static site generator (and maybe a hosted version), where everybody would pledge to not customise anything except a set of offered css variables. Then federate those blogs somehow. Though I somehow doubt that such a community would stay “pure” for long.

rakoo 5y ago

The faq answers your question: => https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi https://gemini.circumlunar.space/docs/faq.gmi > 2.5 Why not just use a subset of HTTP and HTML? > Many people are confused as to why it's worth creating a new protocol to address perceived problems with optional, non-essential features of the web. Just because websites can track users and run CPU-hogging Javsacript and pull in useless multi-megabyte header images or even larger autoplaying videos, doesn't mean they have to. Why not just build non-evil websites using the existing technology? > Of course, this is possible. "The Gemini experience" is roughly equivalent to HTTP where the only request header is "Host" and the only response header is "Content-type" and HTML where the only tags are <p>, <pre>, <a>, <h1> through <h3>, <ul> and <li> and <blockquote> - and the https://gemini.circumlunar.space https://gemini.circumlunar.space website offers pretty much this experience. We know it can be done. > The problem is that deciding upon a strictly limited subset of HTTP and HTML, slapping a label on it and calling it a day would do almost nothing to create a clearly demarcated space where people can go to consume only that kind of content in only that kind of way. It's impossible to know in advance whether what's on the other side of a https:// https:// URL will be within the subset or outside it. It's very tedious to verify that a website claiming to use only the subset actually does, as many of the features we want to avoid are invisible (but not harmless!) to the user. It's difficult or even impossible to deactivate support for all the unwanted features in mainstream browsers, so if somebody breaks the rules you'll pay the consequences. Writing a dumbed down web browser which gracefully ignores all the unwanted features is much harder than writing a Gemini client from scratch. Even if you did it, you'd have a very difficult time discovering the minuscule fraction of websites it could render. > Alternative, simple-by-design protocols like Gopher and Gemini create alternative, simple-by-design spaces with obvious boundaries and hard restrictions. You know for sure when you enter Geminispace, and you can know for sure and in advance when following a certain link will cause you leave it. While you're there, you know for sure and in advance that everybody else there is playing by the same rules. You can relax and get on with your browsing, and follow links to sites you've never heard of before, which just popped up yesterday, and be confident that they won't try to track you or serve you garbage because they can't. You can do all this with a client you wrote yourself, so you know you can trust it. It's a very different, much more liberating and much more empowering experience than trying to carve out a tiny, invisible sub-sub-sub-sub-space of the web.

alexwennerberg 5y ago

People have said this for years, and yet, no such formal community has been created, while Gemini only grows in popularity. I think such a community would be great, but it's hard to maintain a strict separation with the "rest of the web" in the way that Gemini has.