7 ms·

Pakistan: A man trying to improve women's underwear

43 points by arkj 5y ago

jimmyed 5y ago
Why hasn't the mindframe changed with time? One would imagine that the modern age, with it's Netflix, tinder, Hollywood movies would have pushed out mediaeval era conservative ideology.
- Conan_Kudo 5y ago
  They're not heavily exposed to that in Pakistan. That stuff is regulated, controlled, and locked down.
  - zodiakzz 5y ago
    Not true, only cable TV is regulated. Netflix has free reign atm (e.g., 50 Shades of Grey has yet to leave "top 10 most watched" here).
- weird-eye-issue 5y ago
  You mean "frame of mind", by the way. Mindframe is not really a word or phrase and really confused me because it sounded so familiar lol
  - jmole 5y ago
    or mindset. I also felt the uncanny valley of "mindframe".
    - weird-eye-issue 5y ago
      Oh yeah mindset is probably what they meant
- f6v 5y ago
  > Netflix, tinder, Hollywood movies would have pushed out mediaeval era conservative ideology The latter took centuries to form. The former was just invented recently.
- cryptoz 5y ago
  It's not that much different from the US, though, really, is it? Gay people couldn't marry here in most places until just a few years ago. And still, this country has raging huge debates about who is allowed to use which restroom, if a professional kneeling to a song is allowed to happen if he's black and trying to make a point, etc. Sure, there are differences between Pakistan and the US, but I don't think the differences are as wide as you imply. Western 'hollywood' values are extremely gender-restrictive and not "open" or whatever at all.
  - pepperonipizza 5y ago
    The situation for women in Pakistan is completely different from the US. Ranked second lowest for gender equality. https://pakistan.unfpa.org/en/topics/gender-equality-14#:~:text=Yet%20Pakistan%20currently%20ranks%20the,the%20Global%20Gender%20Gap%20Index https://pakistan.unfpa.org/en/topics/gender-equality-14#:~:t.... Apostasy is forbidden, homosexuality is illegal, religious minorities are often persecuted.
    - cryptoz 5y ago
      Yes, I know it is worse there than here. Reading up on the US history, it seems like 'being' gay was only legalized/protected by the supreme court in the early 2000s. And even, "Fourteen states either have not yet formally repealed their laws against sexual activity among consenting adults or have not revised them to accurately reflect their true scope in the aftermath of Lawrence v. Texas" [1] > religious minorities are often persecuted. That sounds just like America to be totally honest. > Apostasy In the late 80's the president couldn't answer a reporter if atheists are considered citizens or not. Yes the law is different here, I know that. But the US has a recent history (last 20 years) of banning gay activities and oppressing minorities through the use of the law. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_States#Legality_of_same-sex_sexual_activity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Stat... Edit: The report you linked shows the US gender gap as quite large, FWIW. The US is not near the top of the list - wayyy above second-to-last, yes, but again, not exactly the top. Below Colombia, Moldova, Bulgaria, etc- a host of countries that I think most Americans would assume are not as good as the US at gender gap - but in fact we are worse according to the report you linked.
- spockz 5y ago
  I would actually argue that Netflix, tinder, Hollywood, including other western media, do more to confirm that “underwear should titillate”. Also in adverts here it almost always the titillating kind instead of plain comfortable. Point is that for us it is probably a choice what to buy/wear and that we don’t have to deal with bad quality underwear, regardless of style/form/function.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
DoreenMichele 5y ago
Pakistan has a really low average population age and low average education level. So that's a huge challenge right there and part of the reason it is very conservative.
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I would expect lower average population age to exhibit a pro-change rather than anti-change bias.
  - DoreenMichele 5y ago
    Select outtakes from the below linked article: 1. Nearly 22.6 million children (ages 5 through 16) are not in school in Pakistan. In fact, 44 percent of boys and 56 percent of girls in Pakistan do not go to school. Both boys and girls are being denied the right to an education; however, girls are disproportionately affected. 2. Early marriage interrupts young girls’ education. This common Pakistani custom places intense societal pressures that restrict girls from continuing their education once married. In fact, 21 percent of girls are married by their eighteenth birthday, and three percent are married by the age of 15. For every year a girl continues her secondary education, she reduces her chances of becoming a child bride by 3.4 percent. Currently, the government is working to raise the legal marriage age to 18 in order to protect these girls. 3. The Taliban restricts girls’ rights to education. https://www.borgenmagazine.com/top-10-facts-about-girls-education-in-pakistan/ https://www.borgenmagazine.com/top-10-facts-about-girls-educ...
  - Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
    I would expect the exact opposite. Young people want and need to conform. Trying to stick out early without enough social clout is dangerous. Western kids are just as fiercely conservative as their Pakistani peers. But in the west it was the hippie generation that accidentally created all the norms that everyone here have to conserve and conform to. We are no more free than the Pakistanis to decide for ourselves what to believe.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
mrtksn 5y ago
Oh god, this sounds so much like an IT Crowd episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRMBWxfA2OM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRMBWxfA2OM Anyway, the Taboo aspect is interesting. It's funny to see that in Pakistan they have troubles with shopping underwear, if I recall correctly the guy who created Victoria's Secret had similar issues(which made him create the company in first lace). Take a ticket to Istanbul, an ancients city in a muslim-majority country and you would be surprised to see that underwear is not a taboo there. Yes, the current islamist government banned women in bikini to be on billboards but even in conservative neighbourhoods things like bra are traditionally sold using the words like "hats for twins", waving the bra and announcing their amazing price. It's even a theme in local sitcoms, for example? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUh1eJtzIeQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUh1eJtzIeQ You can even find sexy underwear in the catalogues of discount supermarket chains with islamic affiliations.
- plibither8 5y ago
  > create the company in first lace Haha, interesting typo.
akdor1154 5y ago
> "My biggest struggle right now is to let most people know that bras and panties are not a product that titillate," Come on, now you're just testing us.
brabel 5y ago
> "They talk and decide on laces and see-through fabric etc.. Whereas women want comfort and reliability of the product they use." Is that really true? I see a lot of girls wearing tiny, sexy underwear all the time during summer or in the gym... and at least at home, I've never had any say at all about what kind of underwear my wife should use!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- kh_hk 5y ago
  I suspect (and I think that applies to any sex) the phrase expects the mindset of a buyer / shopper. Having no say does not imply what one would look for IF s/he was buying lingerie for someone else, be it a sexy thong or silk boxers. Is the author nudging at the idea that Islamabad's lingerie supplies have been likely choosen by the people running the market imports?
Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
Fascinating that lace panties, essentially a type of fetish gear, is just fine and is even marketed to children, but granny panties are “vulgar”. The attitude is just as prevalent in the west. I remember reading a relationship advice column where a young woman was distraught because her boyfriend didn’t like her lace panties and wanted her to wear plain ones instead. She thought that only a pedophile would prefer plain over lace. Me, I just don’t see the sex appeal of using an objectively flawed product, but that’s probably the engineer in me speaking.

43 points by arkj 5y ago

Why hasn't the mindframe changed with time? One would imagine that the modern age, with it's Netflix, tinder, Hollywood movies would have pushed out mediaeval era conservative ideology.

Conan_Kudo 5y ago
They're not heavily exposed to that in Pakistan. That stuff is regulated, controlled, and locked down.
- zodiakzz 5y ago
  Not true, only cable TV is regulated. Netflix has free reign atm (e.g., 50 Shades of Grey has yet to leave "top 10 most watched" here).
weird-eye-issue 5y ago
You mean "frame of mind", by the way. Mindframe is not really a word or phrase and really confused me because it sounded so familiar lol
- jmole 5y ago
  or mindset. I also felt the uncanny valley of "mindframe".
  - weird-eye-issue 5y ago
    Oh yeah mindset is probably what they meant
f6v 5y ago
> Netflix, tinder, Hollywood movies would have pushed out mediaeval era conservative ideology The latter took centuries to form. The former was just invented recently.
cryptoz 5y ago
It's not that much different from the US, though, really, is it? Gay people couldn't marry here in most places until just a few years ago. And still, this country has raging huge debates about who is allowed to use which restroom, if a professional kneeling to a song is allowed to happen if he's black and trying to make a point, etc. Sure, there are differences between Pakistan and the US, but I don't think the differences are as wide as you imply. Western 'hollywood' values are extremely gender-restrictive and not "open" or whatever at all.
- pepperonipizza 5y ago
  The situation for women in Pakistan is completely different from the US. Ranked second lowest for gender equality. https://pakistan.unfpa.org/en/topics/gender-equality-14#:~:text=Yet%20Pakistan%20currently%20ranks%20the,the%20Global%20Gender%20Gap%20Index https://pakistan.unfpa.org/en/topics/gender-equality-14#:~:t.... Apostasy is forbidden, homosexuality is illegal, religious minorities are often persecuted.
  - cryptoz 5y ago
    Yes, I know it is worse there than here. Reading up on the US history, it seems like 'being' gay was only legalized/protected by the supreme court in the early 2000s. And even, "Fourteen states either have not yet formally repealed their laws against sexual activity among consenting adults or have not revised them to accurately reflect their true scope in the aftermath of Lawrence v. Texas" [1] > religious minorities are often persecuted. That sounds just like America to be totally honest. > Apostasy In the late 80's the president couldn't answer a reporter if atheists are considered citizens or not. Yes the law is different here, I know that. But the US has a recent history (last 20 years) of banning gay activities and oppressing minorities through the use of the law. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_States#Legality_of_same-sex_sexual_activity https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_the_United_Stat... Edit: The report you linked shows the US gender gap as quite large, FWIW. The US is not near the top of the list - wayyy above second-to-last, yes, but again, not exactly the top. Below Colombia, Moldova, Bulgaria, etc- a host of countries that I think most Americans would assume are not as good as the US at gender gap - but in fact we are worse according to the report you linked.
spockz 5y ago
I would actually argue that Netflix, tinder, Hollywood, including other western media, do more to confirm that “underwear should titillate”. Also in adverts here it almost always the titillating kind instead of plain comfortable. Point is that for us it is probably a choice what to buy/wear and that we don’t have to deal with bad quality underwear, regardless of style/form/function.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

DoreenMichele 5y ago

Pakistan has a really low average population age and low average education level. So that's a huge challenge right there and part of the reason it is very conservative.

sokoloff 5y ago
I would expect lower average population age to exhibit a pro-change rather than anti-change bias.
- DoreenMichele 5y ago
  Select outtakes from the below linked article: 1. Nearly 22.6 million children (ages 5 through 16) are not in school in Pakistan. In fact, 44 percent of boys and 56 percent of girls in Pakistan do not go to school. Both boys and girls are being denied the right to an education; however, girls are disproportionately affected. 2. Early marriage interrupts young girls’ education. This common Pakistani custom places intense societal pressures that restrict girls from continuing their education once married. In fact, 21 percent of girls are married by their eighteenth birthday, and three percent are married by the age of 15. For every year a girl continues her secondary education, she reduces her chances of becoming a child bride by 3.4 percent. Currently, the government is working to raise the legal marriage age to 18 in order to protect these girls. 3. The Taliban restricts girls’ rights to education. https://www.borgenmagazine.com/top-10-facts-about-girls-education-in-pakistan/ https://www.borgenmagazine.com/top-10-facts-about-girls-educ...
- Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
  I would expect the exact opposite. Young people want and need to conform. Trying to stick out early without enough social clout is dangerous. Western kids are just as fiercely conservative as their Pakistani peers. But in the west it was the hippie generation that accidentally created all the norms that everyone here have to conserve and conform to. We are no more free than the Pakistanis to decide for ourselves what to believe.
  - sokoloff 5y ago

mrtksn 5y ago

Oh god, this sounds so much like an IT Crowd episode. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRMBWxfA2OM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRMBWxfA2OM Anyway, the Taboo aspect is interesting. It's funny to see that in Pakistan they have troubles with shopping underwear, if I recall correctly the guy who created Victoria's Secret had similar issues(which made him create the company in first lace). Take a ticket to Istanbul, an ancients city in a muslim-majority country and you would be surprised to see that underwear is not a taboo there. Yes, the current islamist government banned women in bikini to be on billboards but even in conservative neighbourhoods things like bra are traditionally sold using the words like "hats for twins", waving the bra and announcing their amazing price. It's even a theme in local sitcoms, for example? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUh1eJtzIeQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DUh1eJtzIeQ You can even find sexy underwear in the catalogues of discount supermarket chains with islamic affiliations.

plibither8 5y ago
> create the company in first lace Haha, interesting typo.

akdor1154 5y ago

> "My biggest struggle right now is to let most people know that bras and panties are not a product that titillate," Come on, now you're just testing us.

brabel 5y ago

> "They talk and decide on laces and see-through fabric etc.. Whereas women want comfort and reliability of the product they use." Is that really true? I see a lot of girls wearing tiny, sexy underwear all the time during summer or in the gym... and at least at home, I've never had any say at all about what kind of underwear my wife should use!

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kh_hk 5y ago
I suspect (and I think that applies to any sex) the phrase expects the mindset of a buyer / shopper. Having no say does not imply what one would look for IF s/he was buying lingerie for someone else, be it a sexy thong or silk boxers. Is the author nudging at the idea that Islamabad's lingerie supplies have been likely choosen by the people running the market imports?

Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago

Fascinating that lace panties, essentially a type of fetish gear, is just fine and is even marketed to children, but granny panties are “vulgar”. The attitude is just as prevalent in the west. I remember reading a relationship advice column where a young woman was distraught because her boyfriend didn’t like her lace panties and wanted her to wear plain ones instead. She thought that only a pedophile would prefer plain over lace. Me, I just don’t see the sex appeal of using an objectively flawed product, but that’s probably the engineer in me speaking.