4 ms·

How is stealing signs cheating? Seems like it should be part of the game. Don't like it? Encrypt your signs. Make baseball a cyber arms race. Maybe then it woul

by umvi 5y ago

How is stealing signs cheating? Seems like it should be part of the game. Don't like it? Encrypt your signs. Make baseball a cyber arms race. Maybe then it would be interesting again. I think Mark Rober made a video where he creates a sign stealing device, though not necessarily as advanced as what the Astros were doing

cratermoon 5y ago
Perhaps read more than the first paragraph. It's not just stealing signs, it's the technology: "they used a camera mounted in center field to steal signs and relay them to hitters in real time"
- umvi 5y ago
  Yeah I read that part. What's stopping the other team from doing the same?
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    The visiting team is not gonna get access to the stadium to do that. It favors the home team.
slg 5y ago
The cheating aspect is using any outside technology. A runner on second isn't forbidden from trying to steal the sign and communicate it to the batter. However you aren't allowed to have someone watching live video, using binoculars to watch the catcher from the outfield, or any other technologically aided approach to stealing signs. Plus teams often do "encrypt" their signs. That is why you might see a third base coach give 10 different signals. Only one or two of them are needed to convey the instructions. The rest are just used to hide the true signal. However it is now trivially easy to decrypt these signs using machine learning. Here is a video on it.[1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmlRbfSavbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmlRbfSavbI
kibwen 5y ago
I get the impression from the article that the Astros were mounting hidden cameras in their own stadium, which of course is a capability that the away team wouldn't have access to. It wouldn't be much of an arms race, it would just always result in a huge advantage for the home team.
- DenverCode 5y ago
  Just to clarify, it wasn't hidden - it was known to be there. The issue is them accessing it from a monitor within the hall to the dugout.
treyfitty 5y ago
This is an underrated response. Yes, deciphering signs was an edge, as long as the means to acquire that edge was honest. It was never considered cheating and I think people are conflating the real issue as simply stealing signs when in reality it’s the combination of stealing signs USING CAMERAS I played HS baseball and we were taught to pay attention to other teams signs and try to decipher the opposing teams tip off signal was. (The sign immediately before the intended sign)
croutonwagon 5y ago
Stealing signs IS part of the game. It’s common, even in little league to try and pickup bunts and steal calls. The Astros however used the home field advantage and centerfield camera to pickup pitch signs, and then relay that to batters so they knew when a pitch with minimum movement was coming. That’s cheating through and through. The visiting team is straight not on the same playing field there. Doctoring the ball, similarly has been a thing for a long time. But only those most obvious (pine tar on the hat) generally got smacked. And even sometimes not then. But generally it’s a level playing field.
jjav 5y ago
> How is stealing signs cheating? Seems like it should be part of the game. Exactly. I lost whatever respect I had left for baseball from this non-scandal. These signs are 100% public info, everyone can see them. Don't like opposite team analyzing them? Too bad. Come up with something better or just plan your strategy out of sight. Whining about other teams looking at 100% public info is beyond silly, I can't have any respect for a sport that thinks this is somehow "cheating".

by umvi 5y ago

cratermoon 5y ago

Perhaps read more than the first paragraph. It's not just stealing signs, it's the technology: "they used a camera mounted in center field to steal signs and relay them to hitters in real time"

umvi 5y ago
Yeah I read that part. What's stopping the other team from doing the same?
- cratermoon 5y ago
  The visiting team is not gonna get access to the stadium to do that. It favors the home team.

slg 5y ago

The cheating aspect is using any outside technology. A runner on second isn't forbidden from trying to steal the sign and communicate it to the batter. However you aren't allowed to have someone watching live video, using binoculars to watch the catcher from the outfield, or any other technologically aided approach to stealing signs. Plus teams often do "encrypt" their signs. That is why you might see a third base coach give 10 different signals. Only one or two of them are needed to convey the instructions. The rest are just used to hide the true signal. However it is now trivially easy to decrypt these signs using machine learning. Here is a video on it.[1] [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmlRbfSavbI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmlRbfSavbI

kibwen 5y ago

I get the impression from the article that the Astros were mounting hidden cameras in their own stadium, which of course is a capability that the away team wouldn't have access to. It wouldn't be much of an arms race, it would just always result in a huge advantage for the home team.

DenverCode 5y ago
Just to clarify, it wasn't hidden - it was known to be there. The issue is them accessing it from a monitor within the hall to the dugout.

treyfitty 5y ago

This is an underrated response. Yes, deciphering signs was an edge, as long as the means to acquire that edge was honest. It was never considered cheating and I think people are conflating the real issue as simply stealing signs when in reality it’s the combination of stealing signs USING CAMERAS I played HS baseball and we were taught to pay attention to other teams signs and try to decipher the opposing teams tip off signal was. (The sign immediately before the intended sign)

croutonwagon 5y ago

Stealing signs IS part of the game. It’s common, even in little league to try and pickup bunts and steal calls. The Astros however used the home field advantage and centerfield camera to pickup pitch signs, and then relay that to batters so they knew when a pitch with minimum movement was coming. That’s cheating through and through. The visiting team is straight not on the same playing field there. Doctoring the ball, similarly has been a thing for a long time. But only those most obvious (pine tar on the hat) generally got smacked. And even sometimes not then. But generally it’s a level playing field.

jjav 5y ago

> How is stealing signs cheating? Seems like it should be part of the game. Exactly. I lost whatever respect I had left for baseball from this non-scandal. These signs are 100% public info, everyone can see them. Don't like opposite team analyzing them? Too bad. Come up with something better or just plan your strategy out of sight. Whining about other teams looking at 100% public info is beyond silly, I can't have any respect for a sport that thinks this is somehow "cheating".