4 ms·

Bad timing to be releasing a book about the Astros cheating scandal and claiming it "nearly ruined baseball" as MLB is currently embroiled in an even bigger che

by slg 5y ago

Bad timing to be releasing a book about the Astros cheating scandal and claiming it "nearly ruined baseball" as MLB is currently embroiled in an even bigger cheating scandal. This was published a week ago by Sports Illustrated[1]: "This Should Be the Biggest Scandal in Sports". But baseball has survived everything from a World Series being throw to the steroids scandals of the 90s. It will survive these scandals too. [1] - https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/06/04/sticky-stuff-is-the-new-steroids-daily-cover https://www.si.com/mlb/2021/06/04/sticky-stuff-is-the-new-st...

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cratermoon 5y ago
"The sticky stuff helps increase spin on pitches, which in turn increases their movement" uh, no. That's not how pitch movement works. How did SI let a writer who knows so little about pitching write this garbage?
- Guest42 5y ago
  I can’t recall the last time (prior to rules enforcement) I’ve seen a pitcher not grab their hat, glove, or belt before each pitch helped by spin in order to use some form of adhesive. Actual data would be helpful but the impression I get is that literally every team did it and allowed the opponent to do it in exchange.
- slg 5y ago
  How do you think pitch movement works? I'm no physicist, but everything I have heard states that spin (or a lack thereof) is the primary driver of pitch movement.
  - cratermoon 5y ago
    The key is "lack thereof". See for example knuckle ball.
    - slg 5y ago
      I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you know what you are talking about here. The benefit a knuckleball gets from its lack of spin is unpredictability in its movement and not movement itself. Outside of the knuckleball, breaking pitches (i.e. pitches with the most movement) generally spin more than non-breaking pitches. For proof you can just take a look at the spin rate leaderboard[1]. Look how far you have to scroll down the list before you start seeing fastballs. [1] - https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPT=FF%7CFT%7CFC%7CSI%7CFS%7CSL%7CCH%7CCU%7CKC%7CCS%7CKN%7CFO%7CEP%7CSC%7CIN%7CPO%7CAB%7CUN%7C&hfAB=&hfGT=R%7C&hfPR=&hfZ=&stadium=&hfBBL=&hfNewZones=&hfPull=&hfC=&hfSea=2021%7C&hfSit=&player_type=pitcher&hfOuts=&opponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=&game_date_lt=&hfInfield=&team=&position=&hfOutfield=&hfRO=&home_road=&hfFlag=&hfBBT=&metric_1=&hfInn=&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&group_by=pitch-type&sort_col=spin_rate&player_event_sort=api_p_release_speed&sort_order=desc&min_pas=0&chk_stats_spin_rate=on#results https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPT=FF%7CFT%...
- sanjiwatsuki 5y ago
  This accurately describes the magnus effect which powers the majority of the movement that a pitch has.
- spacemeetstab 5y ago
  Movement refers to the "horizontal break and vertical drop" of a pitch against the average.[0] If a pitch has more break and more drop then it has more movement. A pitcher can increase these by increasing the spin rate[1]. That's why spin rate is all the rage these days among sabermetric geeks. [0] https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/pitch-movement https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/pitch-movement [1] https://www.mlb.com/news/how-spin-rate-affects-curveball-outcomes-c161770876 https://www.mlb.com/news/how-spin-rate-affects-curveball-out...
redis_mlc 5y ago
I despise baseball. Having said that, I some news stories back in the day about 2 previous scandals: 1) BALCO steroids - a lot of hot air, but I didn't see a lot of punishment for players. So many new hitting records. 2) Barry Bonds and his bionic arm prosthetics. Watch his swing - looks like it's in a groove, because it literally was.
dang 5y ago
We've sent a repost invite to the user who submitted that article (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27418901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27418901). Hopefully it will show up soon! Edit: here it is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27496095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27496095
kodablah 5y ago
> MLB is currently embroiled in an even bigger cheating scandal "bigger", depending on definition used, is definitely subjective here and many would consider the Astros' scandal to be bigger.
- slg 5y ago
  I don't know what definition you would need to use for the Astros scandal to be "bigger". This one involves more players, more teams (including the Astros as an early adopter of this type of cheating), has been going on for longer, and seemingly has had a larger impact on on-field results. It is still early, but the initial numbers suggest that at least 1/3 and potentially 2/3 of pitchers were using these substances[1]. Batting averages have already jumped from .231 to .245[2] since MLB has threatened punishments. [1] - https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/1404062161853423618 https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/140406216185342361... [2] - https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/1404065344642297857 https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/140406534464229785...
  - kodablah 5y ago
    "bigger" as in having a massive outsized advantage compared to their opponents that contributed to a championship. The reason individuals, but not so much teams, are vilified for the steroid era is that it was relatively widespread. There are a lot of wrongs in baseball, some explicitly illegal some not, but ones that cause extreme disparity perpetrated at the organization level (the level championships are won at) cause the most outrage for the size of their unfair effects, be it Black Sox or Astros.

by slg 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

cratermoon 5y ago

"The sticky stuff helps increase spin on pitches, which in turn increases their movement" uh, no. That's not how pitch movement works. How did SI let a writer who knows so little about pitching write this garbage?

Guest42 5y ago
I can’t recall the last time (prior to rules enforcement) I’ve seen a pitcher not grab their hat, glove, or belt before each pitch helped by spin in order to use some form of adhesive. Actual data would be helpful but the impression I get is that literally every team did it and allowed the opponent to do it in exchange.
slg 5y ago
How do you think pitch movement works? I'm no physicist, but everything I have heard states that spin (or a lack thereof) is the primary driver of pitch movement.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  The key is "lack thereof". See for example knuckle ball.
  - slg 5y ago
    I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you know what you are talking about here. The benefit a knuckleball gets from its lack of spin is unpredictability in its movement and not movement itself. Outside of the knuckleball, breaking pitches (i.e. pitches with the most movement) generally spin more than non-breaking pitches. For proof you can just take a look at the spin rate leaderboard[1]. Look how far you have to scroll down the list before you start seeing fastballs. [1] - https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPT=FF%7CFT%7CFC%7CSI%7CFS%7CSL%7CCH%7CCU%7CKC%7CCS%7CKN%7CFO%7CEP%7CSC%7CIN%7CPO%7CAB%7CUN%7C&hfAB=&hfGT=R%7C&hfPR=&hfZ=&stadium=&hfBBL=&hfNewZones=&hfPull=&hfC=&hfSea=2021%7C&hfSit=&player_type=pitcher&hfOuts=&opponent=&pitcher_throws=&batter_stands=&hfSA=&game_date_gt=&game_date_lt=&hfInfield=&team=&position=&hfOutfield=&hfRO=&home_road=&hfFlag=&hfBBT=&metric_1=&hfInn=&min_pitches=0&min_results=0&group_by=pitch-type&sort_col=spin_rate&player_event_sort=api_p_release_speed&sort_order=desc&min_pas=0&chk_stats_spin_rate=on#results https://baseballsavant.mlb.com/statcast_search?hfPT=FF%7CFT%...
sanjiwatsuki 5y ago
This accurately describes the magnus effect which powers the majority of the movement that a pitch has.
spacemeetstab 5y ago
Movement refers to the "horizontal break and vertical drop" of a pitch against the average.[0] If a pitch has more break and more drop then it has more movement. A pitcher can increase these by increasing the spin rate[1]. That's why spin rate is all the rage these days among sabermetric geeks. [0] https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/pitch-movement https://www.mlb.com/glossary/statcast/pitch-movement [1] https://www.mlb.com/news/how-spin-rate-affects-curveball-outcomes-c161770876 https://www.mlb.com/news/how-spin-rate-affects-curveball-out...

redis_mlc 5y ago

I despise baseball. Having said that, I some news stories back in the day about 2 previous scandals: 1) BALCO steroids - a lot of hot air, but I didn't see a lot of punishment for players. So many new hitting records. 2) Barry Bonds and his bionic arm prosthetics. Watch his swing - looks like it's in a groove, because it literally was.

dang 5y ago

We've sent a repost invite to the user who submitted that article (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27418901 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27418901). Hopefully it will show up soon! Edit: here it is: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27496095 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27496095

kodablah 5y ago

> MLB is currently embroiled in an even bigger cheating scandal "bigger", depending on definition used, is definitely subjective here and many would consider the Astros' scandal to be bigger.

slg 5y ago
I don't know what definition you would need to use for the Astros scandal to be "bigger". This one involves more players, more teams (including the Astros as an early adopter of this type of cheating), has been going on for longer, and seemingly has had a larger impact on on-field results. It is still early, but the initial numbers suggest that at least 1/3 and potentially 2/3 of pitchers were using these substances[1]. Batting averages have already jumped from .231 to .245[2] since MLB has threatened punishments. [1] - https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/1404062161853423618 https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/140406216185342361... [2] - https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/1404065344642297857 https://twitter.com/Travis_Sawchik/status/140406534464229785...
- kodablah 5y ago
  "bigger" as in having a massive outsized advantage compared to their opponents that contributed to a championship. The reason individuals, but not so much teams, are vilified for the steroid era is that it was relatively widespread. There are a lot of wrongs in baseball, some explicitly illegal some not, but ones that cause extreme disparity perpetrated at the organization level (the level championships are won at) cause the most outrage for the size of their unfair effects, be it Black Sox or Astros.