5 ms·

So she gave them all her money and they kept her behind bars for the rest of her life. How is this not a cult?

by FounderBurr 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ekianjo 5y ago
> they kept her behind bars for the rest of her life You are assuming she had no choice to leave.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
draw_down 5y ago
Well, what’s a cult? A cult is a group you don’t like.
jollybean 5y ago
A religion is the embodiment of spiritual principle. A cult is an institution which exists to empower and enrich leadership structure of the cult. Given the infallibility of humans, there can be lot of cultishness in religion. Paradoxically, a lot of cult members are actually true believers, often trying to - and doing - quite some good, meaning there can in many cases be some good 'conscientious externalizations' of even some otherwise crappy cults. This is harder to grasp but it's real. There are many otherwise secular groups that exist in this sphere especially among 1) ideologically oriented groups - and 2) corporations. My personal exposure to these kinds of environments triggers that 'weird feeling' whenever I visit such-and-such campus, in the Silicon Valley and elsewhere. There are political organizations, even 'nice ones' in 'nice countries' that take children, not even teens, off in isolation to places like 'camps on islands' to 'teach them their values'. Because of the lack of obvious religious artifacts, it doesn't set of the usual triggers, but when taking a more holistic view ... it seems a bit unhealthy. Even more meta, it seems to me that cultures that have very deep and complex behavioural patterns, idioms, norms, language structure etc. exhibit a lot of the same attributes. You could go so far as to point at many 'major cultures' ... but to be a little less controversial, my experience with both Amish and Mennonite community certainly has elements of this. But I reserve judgment. It's complicated. And also they are some of the most inconceivably kind people on the planet. FYI they are effectively pacifists, as 'God's Children should not take up arms against one another' etc. - they won't join the Army. Edit: from a purely secular perspective, where the notion of 'there being a god or not' or where 'beliefs' etc. irrelevant ... than really what is the difference between the Soviet Union, for example, and a cult? They exhibit all of the same artifacts. The only difference being, in some cults, there might be some kind of supernatural extra beliefs to go along with it. Stalin used (perverted?) a secular ideology in the same way as a cult would use their own system of beliefs. 99% of the resulting systematic and authoritarian externalizations have nothing to do with the 'core beliefs' in both cases. Edit 2: whether 'core principles' are ideological, spiritual, corporatist, nationalist, or even cultural, you get a lot of the same type of group dynamics forming.
anonu 5y ago
You make it sound like she was forced to do this. There's nothing in Christianity that forces you to give your money to the Church or to become a nun. You do this on your own free will.
- trowaway7642 5y ago
  Free will doesn’t exist though. Everything is cause and effect. In this case it looks like a cult and mental illness made for an interesting but sad outcome.
  - slater 5y ago
    Thank you for your opinion.
    - trowaway7642 5y ago
      Not really an opinion when science favors the assertion unlike wanting to believe in an illogical fantasy.
      - jazzyjackson 5y ago
        When you think someone else is crazy, consider that you may be misinterpreting what they're saying. Religion is a different language, it doesn't map on to your demand for logical reason.
        trowaway7642 5y ago
        Mental illness doesn’t equate to crazy if that’s what you’re replying towards my previous comment mentioning mental illness. Although I see a world that just boils down to cause & effect, I find nothing wrong with people desiring to believe in spiritual deities but being part of a religion is where I speculate a lot of unhealthy behavior grows and has undeniably harmed a lot of lgbtq+ children. I would rather associate with a group of people that prefer logic & reason any day over persons that prefer faith because I’ve noticed in my life that persons that prefer faith have desires to control others without much concern towards the persons they control not wishing to be treated in such a manner. I grew up in a catholic family and I wouldn’t be surprised if the hell they fear isn’t deserved for their controlling tendencies that religion encourages.
Thorrez 5y ago
>So she gave them all her money Do you have a source for this? I don't see it in the article. >and it was then she began the long, considered bid to join one of the strictest orders of nuns in the world. It sounds like it was hard for her to get in, and the group is fairly exclusive. I think cults try to get people to join by making it easy to join.
- tshaddox 5y ago
  There is no shortage of cults that establish a hierarchy with different levels of exclusivity.
  - Thorrez 5y ago
    I'm wondering what the hierarchy like that is here. There seem to just be 2 levels here: lay Catholic and Carmelite nun. Would the entire Catholic Church be a cult? It doesn't have the "gave them all her money" or "kept her behind bars" aspects that FounderBurr mentioned.
- renewiltord 5y ago
  > Five years later she gave away everything she owned to join the Sisters of Our Lady of Mount Carmel in Des Plaines, Illinois. The source is the linked BBC article
  - treyfitty 5y ago
    That doesn’t mean she gave it to the church. I interpreted that statement as “she gave away everything [to her children]
    - renewiltord 5y ago
      Hmm, fair enough. In fact, it appears from https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-10-29-me-56060-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-10-29-me-56060-... that she gave to her children what they desired and then auctioned the rest to charity (one can imagine that wasn’t necessarily this church).
iammisc 5y ago
> So she gave them all her money and they kept her behind bars for the rest of her life. How is this not a cult? Because she could leave if she wanted to? Nuns leave somewhat frequently (so do priests). No one is stopping them. The idea of giving all your stuff away to follow God is something people choose willingly.

So she gave them all her money and they kept her behind bars for the rest of her life. How is this not a cult?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

ekianjo 5y ago

> they kept her behind bars for the rest of her life You are assuming she had no choice to leave.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

draw_down 5y ago

Well, what’s a cult? A cult is a group you don’t like.

jollybean 5y ago

A religion is the embodiment of spiritual principle. A cult is an institution which exists to empower and enrich leadership structure of the cult. Given the infallibility of humans, there can be lot of cultishness in religion. Paradoxically, a lot of cult members are actually true believers, often trying to - and doing - quite some good, meaning there can in many cases be some good 'conscientious externalizations' of even some otherwise crappy cults. This is harder to grasp but it's real. There are many otherwise secular groups that exist in this sphere especially among 1) ideologically oriented groups - and 2) corporations. My personal exposure to these kinds of environments triggers that 'weird feeling' whenever I visit such-and-such campus, in the Silicon Valley and elsewhere. There are political organizations, even 'nice ones' in 'nice countries' that take children, not even teens, off in isolation to places like 'camps on islands' to 'teach them their values'. Because of the lack of obvious religious artifacts, it doesn't set of the usual triggers, but when taking a more holistic view ... it seems a bit unhealthy. Even more meta, it seems to me that cultures that have very deep and complex behavioural patterns, idioms, norms, language structure etc. exhibit a lot of the same attributes. You could go so far as to point at many 'major cultures' ... but to be a little less controversial, my experience with both Amish and Mennonite community certainly has elements of this. But I reserve judgment. It's complicated. And also they are some of the most inconceivably kind people on the planet. FYI they are effectively pacifists, as 'God's Children should not take up arms against one another' etc. - they won't join the Army. Edit: from a purely secular perspective, where the notion of 'there being a god or not' or where 'beliefs' etc. irrelevant ... than really what is the difference between the Soviet Union, for example, and a cult? They exhibit all of the same artifacts. The only difference being, in some cults, there might be some kind of supernatural extra beliefs to go along with it. Stalin used (perverted?) a secular ideology in the same way as a cult would use their own system of beliefs. 99% of the resulting systematic and authoritarian externalizations have nothing to do with the 'core beliefs' in both cases. Edit 2: whether 'core principles' are ideological, spiritual, corporatist, nationalist, or even cultural, you get a lot of the same type of group dynamics forming.

anonu 5y ago

You make it sound like she was forced to do this. There's nothing in Christianity that forces you to give your money to the Church or to become a nun. You do this on your own free will.

trowaway7642 5y ago
Free will doesn’t exist though. Everything is cause and effect. In this case it looks like a cult and mental illness made for an interesting but sad outcome.
- slater 5y ago
  Thank you for your opinion.
  - trowaway7642 5y ago
    Not really an opinion when science favors the assertion unlike wanting to believe in an illogical fantasy.
    - jazzyjackson 5y ago
      When you think someone else is crazy, consider that you may be misinterpreting what they're saying. Religion is a different language, it doesn't map on to your demand for logical reason.
      - trowaway7642 5y ago
        Mental illness doesn’t equate to crazy if that’s what you’re replying towards my previous comment mentioning mental illness. Although I see a world that just boils down to cause & effect, I find nothing wrong with people desiring to believe in spiritual deities but being part of a religion is where I speculate a lot of unhealthy behavior grows and has undeniably harmed a lot of lgbtq+ children. I would rather associate with a group of people that prefer logic & reason any day over persons that prefer faith because I’ve noticed in my life that persons that prefer faith have desires to control others without much concern towards the persons they control not wishing to be treated in such a manner. I grew up in a catholic family and I wouldn’t be surprised if the hell they fear isn’t deserved for their controlling tendencies that religion encourages.

Thorrez 5y ago

>So she gave them all her money Do you have a source for this? I don't see it in the article. >and it was then she began the long, considered bid to join one of the strictest orders of nuns in the world. It sounds like it was hard for her to get in, and the group is fairly exclusive. I think cults try to get people to join by making it easy to join.

tshaddox 5y ago
There is no shortage of cults that establish a hierarchy with different levels of exclusivity.
- Thorrez 5y ago
  I'm wondering what the hierarchy like that is here. There seem to just be 2 levels here: lay Catholic and Carmelite nun. Would the entire Catholic Church be a cult? It doesn't have the "gave them all her money" or "kept her behind bars" aspects that FounderBurr mentioned.
renewiltord 5y ago
> Five years later she gave away everything she owned to join the Sisters of Our Lady of Mount Carmel in Des Plaines, Illinois. The source is the linked BBC article
- treyfitty 5y ago
  That doesn’t mean she gave it to the church. I interpreted that statement as “she gave away everything [to her children]
  - renewiltord 5y ago
    Hmm, fair enough. In fact, it appears from https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-10-29-me-56060-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-10-29-me-56060-... that she gave to her children what they desired and then auctioned the rest to charity (one can imagine that wasn’t necessarily this church).

iammisc 5y ago

> So she gave them all her money and they kept her behind bars for the rest of her life. How is this not a cult? Because she could leave if she wanted to? Nuns leave somewhat frequently (so do priests). No one is stopping them. The idea of giving all your stuff away to follow God is something people choose willingly.