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the secular world is simply the things that are not connected with religion, to talk about it as a "thing" that needs anymore definition than that doesn't reall

the secular world is simply the things that are not connected with religion, to talk about it as a "thing" that needs anymore definition than that doesn't really make sense. It doesn't make sense for "secular" to define itself anymore than that. There may be groups of secular people who develop the kinds of traits you are interested in, for instance secular humanism. But the "secular world" is just those things that are not connected with religion and secular things don't really anymore traits other than that.

rootusrootus 5y ago
I agree with this. It seems like OP taking the position that everyone is in fact religious, even when they say they are not. This is a position I see many religious people take, and I completely disagree with the premise. I also don't really consider myself an atheist, either. Ignostic is accurate. Maybe that's worse ;-)
- tonymet 5y ago
  I'm trying to convince secular people, especially atheists, that they are in every way religious. That most of their beliefs are taken on faith. They have a value system of virtue and vice (usually implied), and they have deities ( forces, persona & phenomena that affect their life in a supernatural way).
  - Tainnor 5y ago
    Well, you're wrong. A value system is not a set of beliefs. I think it's important to treat people fairly. But I don't believe that the "universe" or whatever cares about fair treatment of people. What matters to me personally or what I find ethical has nothing to do with any sort of deep truth about the world. I like ice cream, that doesn't mean that I ascribe any metaphysical importance to the taste and texture of ice cream. I also don't have "deities" or anything that affects my life in a supernatural way, and I'm not sure what gave you the idea that secular people (in general) do - maybe you talked to a bunch of esoteric-minded people, or to the kind of environmentalist that turns nature into some sort of mystical deity, but that's not every secularist (nor every environmentalist). Maybe you should try talking to actual atheists instead of strawmanning them.

rootusrootus 5y ago

I agree with this. It seems like OP taking the position that everyone is in fact religious, even when they say they are not. This is a position I see many religious people take, and I completely disagree with the premise. I also don't really consider myself an atheist, either. Ignostic is accurate. Maybe that's worse ;-)

tonymet 5y ago
I'm trying to convince secular people, especially atheists, that they are in every way religious. That most of their beliefs are taken on faith. They have a value system of virtue and vice (usually implied), and they have deities ( forces, persona & phenomena that affect their life in a supernatural way).
- Tainnor 5y ago
  Well, you're wrong. A value system is not a set of beliefs. I think it's important to treat people fairly. But I don't believe that the "universe" or whatever cares about fair treatment of people. What matters to me personally or what I find ethical has nothing to do with any sort of deep truth about the world. I like ice cream, that doesn't mean that I ascribe any metaphysical importance to the taste and texture of ice cream. I also don't have "deities" or anything that affects my life in a supernatural way, and I'm not sure what gave you the idea that secular people (in general) do - maybe you talked to a bunch of esoteric-minded people, or to the kind of environmentalist that turns nature into some sort of mystical deity, but that's not every secularist (nor every environmentalist). Maybe you should try talking to actual atheists instead of strawmanning them.