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I agree with you that in the absence of what we conventionally call "religion" doesn't mean the essential character of religion is erased. Abandoning one religi

I agree with you that in the absence of what we conventionally call "religion" doesn't mean the essential character of religion is erased. Abandoning one religion means adopting another. Abandoning a religious faith with thousands of years of refinement for some quackery invented yesterday, especially without proportional reason, is not exactly the move of a sound mind. I also think religion serves a real need, but all real needs have real objects. And so I do not use the word "utility" here as if the content of the faith didn't matter, that religion is just some instrument that gets us this "other stuff" and has no intrinsic truth or meaning itself. A true religious faith is practiced because it is about the ultimate meaning of one's life and thus the meaning of everything else in life. Thus everything is always subordinate to one's faith. It is important for the faith to be true in order to be able to live one's life in the light of true ends, not mythical counterfeits. This does not contradict the essence of your main point, namely, the the eviction of one religion does not abolish religion. It typically just replaces it with something inferior. > “Why do science and philosophy matter?” I would say philosophical and religious answers. Recall that philosophy is also reflexive. But indeed, scientism is indefensible. It is a philosophical position and thus cannot be defended scientifically. You cannot simply assert it without justification.

ukj 5y ago
What is the utility of truth? If it has none then I don’t need it. Reflexivity is precisely where meaning/religion comes from. From the self.
- bobthechef 5y ago
  > What is the utility of truth? I don't understand the question. Truth is the correspondence of the mind with the real. The value of some truths is mostly instrumental. The value of others is that it is good for us to know them for themselves. If you are using "utility" to mean "value", then maybe you accept this, but utility is typically something like a species of value, as I understand it. Pure practicality is incoherent. They needs to be a terminus. What is "need" here? Toward what end? Need is always about ends. > Reflexivity is precisely where meaning/religion comes from. From the self. Meaning doesn't come from ourselves. We cannot invent meaning. Either something means something, or it doesn't. What you describe is mental illness and delusion. I also don't see what this has to do with truth/utility.
  - ukj 5y ago
    > I don't understand the question. Truth is the correspondence of the mind with the real. That is only the correspondence theory of truth. There are many other truth-theories. There is the coherence theory, pragmatic theory, constructivist theory, consensus theory. Why have you chosen that particular truth-theory? I use utility in the same sense of “teleos” - end purpose. What is the purpose of truth? What is the purpose of having a mind correspond with the real? For your particular conception - it is impossible for any mind to correspond to the real because any given mind is only a subset of the real.
  - ukj 5y ago
    > Either something means something, or it doesn't. This is a peculiar idea. What does my cat mean?
- mistrial9 5y ago
  so - You saw sagacious Solomon | You know what came of him | To him, complexities seemed plain | He cursed the hour that gave birth to him | And saw that everything was vain | How great and wise was Solomon | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's wisdom that had brought him to this state | How fortunate the man with none You saw courageous Caesar next | You know what he became | They deified him in his life | Then had him murdered just the same | And as they raised the fatal knife | How loud he cried "you too my son!" | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's courage that had brought him to that state | How fortunate the man with none You heard of honest Socrates | The man who never lied | They weren't so grateful as you'd think | Instead the rulers fixed to have him tried | And handed him the poisoned drink | How honest was the people's noble son | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's honesty that brought him to that state | How fortunate the man with none Here you can see respectable folk | Keeping to God's own laws | So far he hasn't taken heed | You who sit safe and warm indoors | Help to relieve out bitter need | How virtuously we had begun | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's fear of God that brought us to that state | How fortunate the man with none Source: LyricFind Songwriters: Brendan Michael Perry / Bertolt Brecht / John Willett How Fortunate the Man With None lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group, BMG Rights Management

ukj 5y ago

What is the utility of truth? If it has none then I don’t need it. Reflexivity is precisely where meaning/religion comes from. From the self.

bobthechef 5y ago
> What is the utility of truth? I don't understand the question. Truth is the correspondence of the mind with the real. The value of some truths is mostly instrumental. The value of others is that it is good for us to know them for themselves. If you are using "utility" to mean "value", then maybe you accept this, but utility is typically something like a species of value, as I understand it. Pure practicality is incoherent. They needs to be a terminus. What is "need" here? Toward what end? Need is always about ends. > Reflexivity is precisely where meaning/religion comes from. From the self. Meaning doesn't come from ourselves. We cannot invent meaning. Either something means something, or it doesn't. What you describe is mental illness and delusion. I also don't see what this has to do with truth/utility.
- ukj 5y ago
  > I don't understand the question. Truth is the correspondence of the mind with the real. That is only the correspondence theory of truth. There are many other truth-theories. There is the coherence theory, pragmatic theory, constructivist theory, consensus theory. Why have you chosen that particular truth-theory? I use utility in the same sense of “teleos” - end purpose. What is the purpose of truth? What is the purpose of having a mind correspond with the real? For your particular conception - it is impossible for any mind to correspond to the real because any given mind is only a subset of the real.
- ukj 5y ago
  > Either something means something, or it doesn't. This is a peculiar idea. What does my cat mean?
mistrial9 5y ago
so - You saw sagacious Solomon | You know what came of him | To him, complexities seemed plain | He cursed the hour that gave birth to him | And saw that everything was vain | How great and wise was Solomon | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's wisdom that had brought him to this state | How fortunate the man with none You saw courageous Caesar next | You know what he became | They deified him in his life | Then had him murdered just the same | And as they raised the fatal knife | How loud he cried "you too my son!" | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's courage that had brought him to that state | How fortunate the man with none You heard of honest Socrates | The man who never lied | They weren't so grateful as you'd think | Instead the rulers fixed to have him tried | And handed him the poisoned drink | How honest was the people's noble son | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's honesty that brought him to that state | How fortunate the man with none Here you can see respectable folk | Keeping to God's own laws | So far he hasn't taken heed | You who sit safe and warm indoors | Help to relieve out bitter need | How virtuously we had begun | The world, however, did not wait | But soon observed what followed on | It's fear of God that brought us to that state | How fortunate the man with none Source: LyricFind Songwriters: Brendan Michael Perry / Bertolt Brecht / John Willett How Fortunate the Man With None lyrics © Universal Music Publishing Group, BMG Rights Management