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Seems that British nationalism runs pretty deep too, no? How else would you explain brexit?

skissane 5y ago
Many would argue that Brexit was more about English nationalism than British nationalism. What makes the UK very complex is the coexistence of two layers of national identity – British layered over English, Scottish, Welsh, (Northern) Irish. Which layer a person identifies with is very often determined by their politics, and sometimes also by religious/cultural background. (British vs Irish identity in Northern Ireland tends to correspond with Protestant vs Catholic religious background, albeit there are exceptions to that generalisation.) At the same time, given England is 85% of the population, the boundary between "British nationalism" and "English nationalism" is often quite vague. Its boundaries with Scottish nationalism, Welsh nationalism, Irish nationalism, tend to be more clearly cut.
- tzs 5y ago
  Would it have better fit in with those layers if instead of voting on the UK leaving the EU they had instead voted on England leaving the UK?
  - ytwySXpMbS 5y ago
    I don’t think England would ever leave the UK, as English people view England as the main UK country. Also, the EU has been blamed for decades as a scapegoat, whereas the UK definitely hasn’t.
- Nursie 5y ago
  Over half of the Welsh population votes for Brexit. A third of Scots did. Without those votes the UK would not have left the EU. The idea it is purely an English phenomenon is divisive and pernicious.
  - skissane 5y ago
    > Over half of the Welsh population votes for Brexit Many of the residents of Wales who voted for Brexit are English: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-peop... The areas of Wales which identify the most strongly as Welsh had the some of the lowest votes for Brexit.
    - Nursie 5y ago
      So we can cut it along perceived ethnic lines too? This is just more pernicious divisiveness. Those areas that are most Welsh also voted in significant numbers for Brexit. The people of the UK, in various proportions in various places, voted to leave the EU. It may suck, but pretending it’s purely an English problem is delusion. If you want someone to blame, blame the people that voted for Brexit everywhere. This exoneration of particular regions is bizarre. How can it be all about English Nationalism when a third of Scots voted that way too?
      - skissane 5y ago
        > How can it be all about English Nationalism when a third of Scots voted that way too? When did I ever say it was all about English nationalism? I think I only said that in your head.
dijit 5y ago
British nationalism is built on building things up as British not tearing things down as unBritish. “‘Cor tea and digestives on a rainy day, what could be more british” National identity precludes other nationalities, which is largely the impetus for Brexit. Brits are not ever blamed for being unBritish, even if they don’t like football.
- mattmanser 5y ago
  That's not true, we regularly judge people not doing things the 'right' way, but we just don't use the term 'un-British'. It's hard to explain, but there are code-phrases that some use like 'its not the done thing', or 'they're not our sort of people'. Supporting football's not really 'British', and a fairly modern phenomenon. In the 80s it was deemed uncouth and heavily associated with hooliganism, but rehabilitated in the 90s, and is already falling out of fashion again. Football support is heavily wrapped up in the complicated British classes, in the 90s/00s it was cool to pretend to be working class when you were middle class, and supporting football was a visible way of doing that.
deleted 5y ago
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contradict 5y ago
They did it to avoid being replaced by immigrants which isn't specific to Britain - it's more like European nationalism.
andrepd 5y ago
> How else would you explain brexit? The economy. I'm sure there's an undercurrent of xenophobia and "little England"-ism which explains it, but it's not the full picture. Probably the biggest factor is that neoliberalism has been fucking working class people over since Thatcher. It's (sadly) empirically demonstrated that economic hardship pushes people to right-wing populism (see the 1930s, and the 2010s). Marx was right, history is moved by the material conditions of people (not fully, but in large part).

Many would argue that Brexit was more about English nationalism than British nationalism. What makes the UK very complex is the coexistence of two layers of national identity – British layered over English, Scottish, Welsh, (Northern) Irish. Which layer a person identifies with is very often determined by their politics, and sometimes also by religious/cultural background. (British vs Irish identity in Northern Ireland tends to correspond with Protestant vs Catholic religious background, albeit there are exceptions to that generalisation.) At the same time, given England is 85% of the population, the boundary between "British nationalism" and "English nationalism" is often quite vague. Its boundaries with Scottish nationalism, Welsh nationalism, Irish nationalism, tend to be more clearly cut.

tzs 5y ago
Would it have better fit in with those layers if instead of voting on the UK leaving the EU they had instead voted on England leaving the UK?
- ytwySXpMbS 5y ago
  I don’t think England would ever leave the UK, as English people view England as the main UK country. Also, the EU has been blamed for decades as a scapegoat, whereas the UK definitely hasn’t.
Nursie 5y ago
Over half of the Welsh population votes for Brexit. A third of Scots did. Without those votes the UK would not have left the EU. The idea it is purely an English phenomenon is divisive and pernicious.
- skissane 5y ago
  > Over half of the Welsh population votes for Brexit Many of the residents of Wales who voted for Brexit are English: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-people-wales-brexit-research https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/sep/22/english-peop... The areas of Wales which identify the most strongly as Welsh had the some of the lowest votes for Brexit.
  - Nursie 5y ago
    So we can cut it along perceived ethnic lines too? This is just more pernicious divisiveness. Those areas that are most Welsh also voted in significant numbers for Brexit. The people of the UK, in various proportions in various places, voted to leave the EU. It may suck, but pretending it’s purely an English problem is delusion. If you want someone to blame, blame the people that voted for Brexit everywhere. This exoneration of particular regions is bizarre. How can it be all about English Nationalism when a third of Scots voted that way too?
    - skissane 5y ago
      > How can it be all about English Nationalism when a third of Scots voted that way too? When did I ever say it was all about English nationalism? I think I only said that in your head.

dijit 5y ago

British nationalism is built on building things up as British not tearing things down as unBritish. “‘Cor tea and digestives on a rainy day, what could be more british” National identity precludes other nationalities, which is largely the impetus for Brexit. Brits are not ever blamed for being unBritish, even if they don’t like football.

mattmanser 5y ago
That's not true, we regularly judge people not doing things the 'right' way, but we just don't use the term 'un-British'. It's hard to explain, but there are code-phrases that some use like 'its not the done thing', or 'they're not our sort of people'. Supporting football's not really 'British', and a fairly modern phenomenon. In the 80s it was deemed uncouth and heavily associated with hooliganism, but rehabilitated in the 90s, and is already falling out of fashion again. Football support is heavily wrapped up in the complicated British classes, in the 90s/00s it was cool to pretend to be working class when you were middle class, and supporting football was a visible way of doing that.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

contradict 5y ago

They did it to avoid being replaced by immigrants which isn't specific to Britain - it's more like European nationalism.

andrepd 5y ago

> How else would you explain brexit? The economy. I'm sure there's an undercurrent of xenophobia and "little England"-ism which explains it, but it's not the full picture. Probably the biggest factor is that neoliberalism has been fucking working class people over since Thatcher. It's (sadly) empirically demonstrated that economic hardship pushes people to right-wing populism (see the 1930s, and the 2010s). Marx was right, history is moved by the material conditions of people (not fully, but in large part).