4 ms·

Does the USA really offer the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of poor people as a share of the total population, of all countries in the world? Wh

Does the USA really offer the greatest opportunities to the greatest number of poor people as a share of the total population, of all countries in the world? Why do so many people from the USA believe this tripe without question? It feels like the 'shining city on the hill' was extremely effective propaganda, for the domestic population.

jandrewrogers 5y ago
Anecdotally, it feels true. I, like many Americans, know an enormous number of immigrants and poor people that moved into the middle and upper-middle class through hard work and discipline. There is still plenty of opportunity to do that US if you apply yourself. Economic mobility is very high in the US (which is distinct from social mobility). When I've worked in Europe, it has always been evident that this is much harder to achieve there for poor people and immigrants. The entire social system is setup to limit the ability of ambitious people to rise above whatever station they were born into in a way that isn't really a thing in the US. This contributes to why engineering wages are relatively low in Europe.
- IggleSniggle 5y ago
  “Cutting down the tall poppy”
- zokula 5y ago
  > Economic mobility is very high in the US Not so much. The U.S. is not even in the top 10 of countries for Economic mobility.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jandrewrogers 5y ago
    The US ranks very high in terms of absolute mobility. Measures of relative mobility are only comparable between countries if they have similar wage compression curves, which is also partially a function of country size. US wages are much less compressed than in Europe -- see also: engineering wages -- so they aren't meaningfully comparable in relative terms. Given two countries with the same median wage (PPP), a 20k increase in income in one country may be relatively "economically mobile" and a 40k increase in income in the other is not, even though the income increase is much larger in real terms. When average people talk about economic mobility, they mean the second case; using relative mobility is misleading.
IncRnd 5y ago
I am an American, and I have known a number of immigrants over the years, one who won the lottery in order to come to the US. They have mostly but not all been from Eastern bloc countries. Every single one of those people is grateful to have come here, is amazed that the people born here do not take advantage of their birthright of opportunities, and absolutely does not think that talk about the greatest opportunities is tripe or propaganda. They are also dumbfounded at the problems that we create for ourselves as a country. Yet, to a one, they all wish they could bring their parents and families here.
- antihipocrat 5y ago
  I have had similar sentiments expressed to me from immigrants who have come to the country where I'm from (Australia). It's possible that the opportunities given to migrants relocating to any highly developed nation are equivalent. That is, not a phenomenon unique to the USA.
  - IncRnd 5y ago
    > It's possible that the opportunities given to migrants relocating to any highly developed nation are equivalent. That's an excellent point, and one I doubt even needs to be answered to any degree of certainty. Everyone wants a better life, and that can be had in many ways and places.
FpUser 5y ago
I can see how during the last 30 years opportunities become fewer and fewer in Canada. I assume it is probably the same in the US. Well we have to feed ever increasing appetites of 3-percenters or whatever the number is. On top of that there are generally more and more people and less resources.

jandrewrogers 5y ago

Anecdotally, it feels true. I, like many Americans, know an enormous number of immigrants and poor people that moved into the middle and upper-middle class through hard work and discipline. There is still plenty of opportunity to do that US if you apply yourself. Economic mobility is very high in the US (which is distinct from social mobility). When I've worked in Europe, it has always been evident that this is much harder to achieve there for poor people and immigrants. The entire social system is setup to limit the ability of ambitious people to rise above whatever station they were born into in a way that isn't really a thing in the US. This contributes to why engineering wages are relatively low in Europe.

IggleSniggle 5y ago
“Cutting down the tall poppy”
zokula 5y ago
> Economic mobility is very high in the US Not so much. The U.S. is not even in the top 10 of countries for Economic mobility.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jandrewrogers 5y ago
  The US ranks very high in terms of absolute mobility. Measures of relative mobility are only comparable between countries if they have similar wage compression curves, which is also partially a function of country size. US wages are much less compressed than in Europe -- see also: engineering wages -- so they aren't meaningfully comparable in relative terms. Given two countries with the same median wage (PPP), a 20k increase in income in one country may be relatively "economically mobile" and a 40k increase in income in the other is not, even though the income increase is much larger in real terms. When average people talk about economic mobility, they mean the second case; using relative mobility is misleading.

IncRnd 5y ago

I am an American, and I have known a number of immigrants over the years, one who won the lottery in order to come to the US. They have mostly but not all been from Eastern bloc countries. Every single one of those people is grateful to have come here, is amazed that the people born here do not take advantage of their birthright of opportunities, and absolutely does not think that talk about the greatest opportunities is tripe or propaganda. They are also dumbfounded at the problems that we create for ourselves as a country. Yet, to a one, they all wish they could bring their parents and families here.

antihipocrat 5y ago
I have had similar sentiments expressed to me from immigrants who have come to the country where I'm from (Australia). It's possible that the opportunities given to migrants relocating to any highly developed nation are equivalent. That is, not a phenomenon unique to the USA.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  > It's possible that the opportunities given to migrants relocating to any highly developed nation are equivalent. That's an excellent point, and one I doubt even needs to be answered to any degree of certainty. Everyone wants a better life, and that can be had in many ways and places.

FpUser 5y ago

I can see how during the last 30 years opportunities become fewer and fewer in Canada. I assume it is probably the same in the US. Well we have to feed ever increasing appetites of 3-percenters or whatever the number is. On top of that there are generally more and more people and less resources.