6 ms·

The art of Front end Engineering

53 points by kintalo 5y ago

celim307 5y ago
Like any position my enjoyment of front end depends highly on the philosophy of the company. Am I going to work with designers and product managers to really put the customer first and craft accessible, enjoyable, and useful ways of customer interaction? Or am I going to spend my time building dark patterns
- brotzky 5y ago
  Definitely. There's something amazing working as a frontend on a design led company. Often time my role feels closer to the designers than backend. The best part though is we get to participate in both spectrums if we really want.
______- 5y ago
Developers only get to call themselves 'Engineers' when they deal with lots of Javascript. HTML+CSS is a sort of glue language, and using that on a daily basis is not engineering anymore than filling up plant pots with compost and seeds and then calling yourself a 'gardener'.
- kintalo 5y ago
  Are we really going to go down this path? Feel like this is such an outdated view that doesn't add any value.
  - joshwcomeau 5y ago
    Yep. In addition to being toxic and wrong and pointless, it also reveals that OP isn’t actually very good at the non-JS parts of front-end engineering. It’s easy to assume that something is basic when you only have a basic understanding of it.
    - hobs 5y ago
      It's also the same kind of gatekeeping that they said about javascript when it was first introduced... the gp doesn't even know their history.
- cupofjoakim 5y ago
  Nice gatekeeping dude. I disagree - a lot of cases can be done with just html and css. Choosing the right tool for the job can by no means mean that you're any less of an engineer.
  - ab1375260 5y ago
    Very well said.
jasonkimtech 5y ago
Great article!
austincheney 5y ago
There’s a deep understanding of the tools they use every day. They may use a framework as a starting point, but they also understand the JavaScript that makes the underlying work. They leverage CSS like a fluent language, manipulating DOM elements to their will. They see browser APIs as the foundation of their process rather than puzzling concepts pulled from Stackoverflow answers. I wish that were true, I have not seen this in the corporate world and it appears absent in the job opening details of startups. My experience tells me this: * If you are really good you can be up and running a new project in something like React in 2 or 3 days. * If you are really good you can be up and running without any framework at all in about 2 weeks. * If you don’t use a framework you are forced to make tough design decisions early. This is critically beneficial and pays interest over time. Those decisions allow you to scale in ways frameworks cannot. * The value of frameworks is over estimated for the wrong reasons and under appreciated for reasons developers don’t immediately see. * Working directly to the DOM (even without query selectors) is amazingly easy, but it takes practice (just like writing CSS). The value is not the data, but the relationship between the nodes. That line of thinking reminds me of this board game called Othello. * State management is less easy but still not challenging. https://github.com/prettydiff/wisdom/blob/master/state_management.md https://github.com/prettydiff/wisdom/blob/master/state_manag...
- nbardy 5y ago
  This is pretty drab. I can be up and started in about two minutes with React, typescript and parcel.
  - leephillips 5y ago
    He didn’t say “started”, but up and running. I interpret that as having a basic working site.
- echelon 5y ago
  By the time you build your solution in native DOM, you've missed the market. This is why we don't write applications in assembler. If performance is your only metric, write Rust and target WASM. But that's probably not the right solution for 95% of cases.
gumby 5y ago
> They see [XXX] as the foundation of their process rather than puzzling concepts pulled from Stackoverflow answers. Apart from front end, this in general is the mark of people who are fun to work with. Especially so when the XXX in question is something I don’t have facility with myself. I’m very glad that programming has become less an obscure art known only to the adepts. Nevertheless I personally prefer to work with those with deep knowledge of their domain.
leephillips 5y ago
I felt alienated by the first paragraph. “As the web continues to expand, the tools we use for work and leisure have become synonymous with a URL in the browser.” No, they have not. I rarely use web tools. “The need for applications that marry the best in design and development has never been so high.” I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. “A frontend engineer brings these pieces together in an interface made to delight with every interaction.” Even if I used web tools, I’m not ready to have sex with my word processor. “So, what makes a great Frontend Engineer and why is it so special?” I can’t parse this. What is “it”?
- bryanrasmussen 5y ago
  >“A frontend engineer brings these pieces together in an interface made to delight with every interaction.” >Even if I used web tools, I’m not ready to have sex with my word processor. I was thinking delight used in the same way a foodie uses it.
- throwawayboise 5y ago
  The phrase "delight the user" has always rubbed me the wrong way. I cannot recall ever being "delighted" by software. Frustrated often, yes. Not frustrating != delightful. Sometimes I have even been impressed, but that's different from delight. Mostly the phrase "delight the user" is a red flag that the speaker is spouting buzzwords.
  - reidjs 5y ago
    The only software that has the potential to delight the user are games or gamified software (likes, follows, etc). Everything else is out-of-mind at best.
  - augustk 5y ago
    I absolutely agree. "Delight the user" is superficial sales talk. What you should do as a designer is to put yourself in the user's shoes and solve the problems you will encounter when using the design.
firechickenbird 5y ago
This article is just empty
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

53 points by kintalo 5y ago

Like any position my enjoyment of front end depends highly on the philosophy of the company. Am I going to work with designers and product managers to really put the customer first and craft accessible, enjoyable, and useful ways of customer interaction? Or am I going to spend my time building dark patterns

brotzky 5y ago
Definitely. There's something amazing working as a frontend on a design led company. Often time my role feels closer to the designers than backend. The best part though is we get to participate in both spectrums if we really want.

______- 5y ago

Developers only get to call themselves 'Engineers' when they deal with lots of Javascript. HTML+CSS is a sort of glue language, and using that on a daily basis is not engineering anymore than filling up plant pots with compost and seeds and then calling yourself a 'gardener'.

kintalo 5y ago
Are we really going to go down this path? Feel like this is such an outdated view that doesn't add any value.
- joshwcomeau 5y ago
  Yep. In addition to being toxic and wrong and pointless, it also reveals that OP isn’t actually very good at the non-JS parts of front-end engineering. It’s easy to assume that something is basic when you only have a basic understanding of it.
  - hobs 5y ago
    It's also the same kind of gatekeeping that they said about javascript when it was first introduced... the gp doesn't even know their history.
cupofjoakim 5y ago
Nice gatekeeping dude. I disagree - a lot of cases can be done with just html and css. Choosing the right tool for the job can by no means mean that you're any less of an engineer.
- ab1375260 5y ago
  Very well said.

jasonkimtech 5y ago

Great article!

austincheney 5y ago

There’s a deep understanding of the tools they use every day. They may use a framework as a starting point, but they also understand the JavaScript that makes the underlying work. They leverage CSS like a fluent language, manipulating DOM elements to their will. They see browser APIs as the foundation of their process rather than puzzling concepts pulled from Stackoverflow answers. I wish that were true, I have not seen this in the corporate world and it appears absent in the job opening details of startups. My experience tells me this: * If you are really good you can be up and running a new project in something like React in 2 or 3 days. * If you are really good you can be up and running without any framework at all in about 2 weeks. * If you don’t use a framework you are forced to make tough design decisions early. This is critically beneficial and pays interest over time. Those decisions allow you to scale in ways frameworks cannot. * The value of frameworks is over estimated for the wrong reasons and under appreciated for reasons developers don’t immediately see. * Working directly to the DOM (even without query selectors) is amazingly easy, but it takes practice (just like writing CSS). The value is not the data, but the relationship between the nodes. That line of thinking reminds me of this board game called Othello. * State management is less easy but still not challenging. https://github.com/prettydiff/wisdom/blob/master/state_management.md https://github.com/prettydiff/wisdom/blob/master/state_manag...

nbardy 5y ago
This is pretty drab. I can be up and started in about two minutes with React, typescript and parcel.
- leephillips 5y ago
  He didn’t say “started”, but up and running. I interpret that as having a basic working site.
echelon 5y ago
By the time you build your solution in native DOM, you've missed the market. This is why we don't write applications in assembler. If performance is your only metric, write Rust and target WASM. But that's probably not the right solution for 95% of cases.

gumby 5y ago

> They see [XXX] as the foundation of their process rather than puzzling concepts pulled from Stackoverflow answers. Apart from front end, this in general is the mark of people who are fun to work with. Especially so when the XXX in question is something I don’t have facility with myself. I’m very glad that programming has become less an obscure art known only to the adepts. Nevertheless I personally prefer to work with those with deep knowledge of their domain.

leephillips 5y ago

I felt alienated by the first paragraph. “As the web continues to expand, the tools we use for work and leisure have become synonymous with a URL in the browser.” No, they have not. I rarely use web tools. “The need for applications that marry the best in design and development has never been so high.” I have no idea what this is supposed to mean. “A frontend engineer brings these pieces together in an interface made to delight with every interaction.” Even if I used web tools, I’m not ready to have sex with my word processor. “So, what makes a great Frontend Engineer and why is it so special?” I can’t parse this. What is “it”?

bryanrasmussen 5y ago
>“A frontend engineer brings these pieces together in an interface made to delight with every interaction.” >Even if I used web tools, I’m not ready to have sex with my word processor. I was thinking delight used in the same way a foodie uses it.
throwawayboise 5y ago
The phrase "delight the user" has always rubbed me the wrong way. I cannot recall ever being "delighted" by software. Frustrated often, yes. Not frustrating != delightful. Sometimes I have even been impressed, but that's different from delight. Mostly the phrase "delight the user" is a red flag that the speaker is spouting buzzwords.
- reidjs 5y ago
  The only software that has the potential to delight the user are games or gamified software (likes, follows, etc). Everything else is out-of-mind at best.
- augustk 5y ago
  I absolutely agree. "Delight the user" is superficial sales talk. What you should do as a designer is to put yourself in the user's shoes and solve the problems you will encounter when using the design.

firechickenbird 5y ago

This article is just empty

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]