4 ms·

Telautograph

33 points by nanna 5y ago

pwdisswordfish8 5y ago
What an adorable example of citogenesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Telautograph&oldid=1005965933#cite_note-6 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Telautograph&oldi... Refreshingly honest, really.
- Rexxar 5y ago
  I'm surprised they don't have a bot that check circular references inside Wikipedia.
- nanna 5y ago
  Wait, why?
  - JadeNB 5y ago
    I think the idea is that the authority for the claim that Wikipedia is making is Wikipedia itself; citations "spontaneously generate", as it were: > The Allpoint Pen is currently in use and has been used to register tens of thousands of voters in the United States, and the Long Pen, an invention conceived of by writer Margaret Atwood, is used by authors to sign their books at a distance.[6] > [6] "LongPen", Wikipedia, 2019-10-15, retrieved 2020-05-08
    - nanna 5y ago
      Seems like a bit of a harsh critique to bring all the way out here on hn. Sure it references another Wikipedia page, but on that page external references to the same claim are provided. 'Allpoint pen' could just be internally linked to the relevant Wikipedia page, and the relevant citation brought to the telautograph page? Gp could just fix this on Wikipedia themselves...
      - JadeNB 5y ago
        I didn't mean to endorse the claim, just to explain what I took it to mean.
        nanna 5y ago
        Totally appreciate that!
- renewiltord 5y ago
  That’s not citogenesis. Citogenesis requires laundering through the external world. Just fix the cite to an internal link. This doesn’t need to be “adorable”. It’s literally a self-fixable bug that takes less time to fix than to make this comment. Always confuses me why people make “Behold! A problem!” posts when the problem itself is fixable in less text than that.
marcodiego 5y ago
Most of these early transmission schemes used audible signals transmitted by radio. I'm always curious to listen how they sound.
- IIAOPSW 5y ago
  Like dialup mixed with ragtime.
rexreed 5y ago
This is one of many conflicts between Elisha Gray and Alexander Graham Bell. Bell and Gray famously fought over the telephone patent, one filing just hours before the other. What is also not as widely known is Bell also patented the autograph telegraph fax-like device. Read more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha_Gray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha_Gray : " In April, 1875, ten months before the alleged theft of Gray's design, the U.S. Patent Office granted U.S. Patent 161,739 to Bell for a primitive fax machine, which he called the "autograph telegraph." The patent drawing includes liquid transmitters. " I'm sure there was no love lost between these two.
dang 5y ago
One past thread: Telautograph - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20368098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20368098 - July 2019 (10 comments)
gene-h 5y ago
I am surprised that this was accomplished using primitive electric motors, relays(?), and mechanical parts. This page[0] seems to have some better descriptions of how they worked. The device seems to operate using two relay driven escapements that seem to function similarly to today's stepper motors advancing a single step forward or backward. Step signals are generated by a set of circular contacts connected to the pen mechanism on the receiver. So when the pen is moved a degree a step signal is generated. [0]https://www.jmcvey.net/cable/elements/telautograph1.htm https://www.jmcvey.net/cable/elements/telautograph1.htm
dTal 5y ago
It is funny to me that people found this useful, as it defeats the supposed purpose of a signature. A signature is supposed to be a difficult-to-forge indication of a particular person having read and approved something - of having been physically present. But with the teleautograph, there is no guarantee - none at all - that you are signing what you think you are! You could even be signing multiple things at once without knowing. What's interesting is that clearly this wasn't a practical problem - implicit social contracts held everything together for the most part. Which means that the guarantee of a signature was never really required in the first place - social contracts would work as well for that too (and for that matter, signatures are not difficult to forge either). The whole thing is just an elaborate ritual!

33 points by nanna 5y ago

What an adorable example of citogenesis: https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Telautograph&oldid=1005965933#cite_note-6 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Telautograph&oldi... Refreshingly honest, really.

Rexxar 5y ago
I'm surprised they don't have a bot that check circular references inside Wikipedia.
nanna 5y ago
Wait, why?
- JadeNB 5y ago
  I think the idea is that the authority for the claim that Wikipedia is making is Wikipedia itself; citations "spontaneously generate", as it were: > The Allpoint Pen is currently in use and has been used to register tens of thousands of voters in the United States, and the Long Pen, an invention conceived of by writer Margaret Atwood, is used by authors to sign their books at a distance.[6] > [6] "LongPen", Wikipedia, 2019-10-15, retrieved 2020-05-08
  - nanna 5y ago
    Seems like a bit of a harsh critique to bring all the way out here on hn. Sure it references another Wikipedia page, but on that page external references to the same claim are provided. 'Allpoint pen' could just be internally linked to the relevant Wikipedia page, and the relevant citation brought to the telautograph page? Gp could just fix this on Wikipedia themselves...
    - JadeNB 5y ago
      I didn't mean to endorse the claim, just to explain what I took it to mean.
      - nanna 5y ago
        Totally appreciate that!
renewiltord 5y ago
That’s not citogenesis. Citogenesis requires laundering through the external world. Just fix the cite to an internal link. This doesn’t need to be “adorable”. It’s literally a self-fixable bug that takes less time to fix than to make this comment. Always confuses me why people make “Behold! A problem!” posts when the problem itself is fixable in less text than that.

marcodiego 5y ago

Most of these early transmission schemes used audible signals transmitted by radio. I'm always curious to listen how they sound.

IIAOPSW 5y ago
Like dialup mixed with ragtime.

rexreed 5y ago

This is one of many conflicts between Elisha Gray and Alexander Graham Bell. Bell and Gray famously fought over the telephone patent, one filing just hours before the other. What is also not as widely known is Bell also patented the autograph telegraph fax-like device. Read more at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha_Gray https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisha_Gray : " In April, 1875, ten months before the alleged theft of Gray's design, the U.S. Patent Office granted U.S. Patent 161,739 to Bell for a primitive fax machine, which he called the "autograph telegraph." The patent drawing includes liquid transmitters. " I'm sure there was no love lost between these two.

dang 5y ago

One past thread: Telautograph - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20368098 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20368098 - July 2019 (10 comments)

gene-h 5y ago

I am surprised that this was accomplished using primitive electric motors, relays(?), and mechanical parts. This page[0] seems to have some better descriptions of how they worked. The device seems to operate using two relay driven escapements that seem to function similarly to today's stepper motors advancing a single step forward or backward. Step signals are generated by a set of circular contacts connected to the pen mechanism on the receiver. So when the pen is moved a degree a step signal is generated. [0]https://www.jmcvey.net/cable/elements/telautograph1.htm https://www.jmcvey.net/cable/elements/telautograph1.htm

dTal 5y ago

It is funny to me that people found this useful, as it defeats the supposed purpose of a signature. A signature is supposed to be a difficult-to-forge indication of a particular person having read and approved something - of having been physically present. But with the teleautograph, there is no guarantee - none at all - that you are signing what you think you are! You could even be signing multiple things at once without knowing. What's interesting is that clearly this wasn't a practical problem - implicit social contracts held everything together for the most part. Which means that the guarantee of a signature was never really required in the first place - social contracts would work as well for that too (and for that matter, signatures are not difficult to forge either). The whole thing is just an elaborate ritual!