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> The more-even distribution thus comes at the expense of quality of life. What are you talking about? We have fairer elections, better infrastructure, more so

> The more-even distribution thus comes at the expense of quality of life. What are you talking about? We have fairer elections, better infrastructure, more social security, everyone's got health insurance, we're not getting shot in school, and also we're not on the way to be ruled by a fascist so ... how exactly are you measuring the quality of life?

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
>we're not getting shot in school, and also we're not on the way to be ruled by a fascist I downvoted you since you're going massively off-topic with your generalizations about the US that have no place on HN.
- j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
  Thank you for your thoughtful downvote. However I don't really follow. The discussion is clearly about politics here, so it probably does not count as off-topic. Also, fascism has a massive influence on the economy, making it relevant. If you merely dispute my view that there's fascist tendencies in the US, that is fair, but no reason for a downvote, I'd argue.
  - Delk 5y ago
    As a European who probably agrees with you regarding many policies: You may be able to argue that quality of life is better in Europe or with European-style policies [1]. Everyone having health insurance and less of a need to worry about your basics needs met are fair points. I wouldn't want to live in a society that doesn't seem to care that much about economic equality. But "about to be ruled by a fascist"? Trump lost the election. Sure the diverging right is worrying, but is the country "about to be ruled" by a fascist? And "getting shot at school/street" is pretty much just a cheap shot. I haven't been to the U.S., but I'm willing to wager that for most Americans getting shot is not a primary concern. I'm not saying shootings don't happen or that they aren't tragic, because they do and they are, or that the U.S. don't have a problem. But when they do happen, they obviously get so much visibility and attention that their emotional effect is greater than their actual chances of affecting you in your life, in a way that's not entirely dissimilar to terrorist attacks. That makes appealing to shootings a populist-style emotional argument: easy to throw around and force people's attention with, not entirely truthful, and much more work to argue against than the argument would substantially warrant. That also makes it pretty annoying and bothersome. So, I kind of get why people might not like your argumentation style. [1] Although both Europe and the U.S. are diverse enough that it's going to get tricky; I'm not sure there is such a homogenous thing as "Europe" when it comes to quality of life. But that's a digression.
    - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
      > So, I kind of get why people might not like your argumentation style. Yeah. I know I should dial it down a little. But I'm actually really concerned about the US. They do have a lot of mass shootings, and not even tackling this problem does point to a larger dysfunction in the US. And Trump does not accept is loss and 60% of republicans agree. That's why I actually fear that the next elections in the US will not be democratic. https://snyder.substack.com/p/911-and-16 https://snyder.substack.com/p/911-and-16
      - whiddershins 5y ago
        You don’t understand what the mass shootings are and who does them.
        j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
        Yeah but the people writing the articles I read do.
        whiddershins 5y ago
        Really? I could have sworn you mentioned school shootings. Which are rare, which is why they make the headlines. In Chicago there are mass shootings every weekend that get no press coverage. The inner city gang warfare and similar makes up the vast majority of mass shootings in the U.S. Mass shootings have basically nothing to do with small town and rural NRA members. Did you already know all that?
        j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
        In my last post, where I actually agreed that I should dial it down a little, I therefore wrote about mass shootings. I really don't care about who shoots who. You know, as an European I know for a fact that if less people have guns, less shooting happens, no matter who's the shooter. And of course your rural NRA member has a huge influence on inner city shootings, after all the NRA is also responsible for the laws leading to that many guns circulating. So yeah, I know those things, and I know how wrong you are. Again, I actually live in a country with very few mass shootings, whatever the NRA tells you, they do exist. It seems like NRA "a good guy with a gun" propaganda works though, although I can't really believe that.
oytis 5y ago
Denmark legally discriminates agwinst "non-western" immigrants and officially aims at not taking any refugees at all. France is ruled by a rather right-wing government and has a chance to have a far-right one next. Germany hasn't seen a left-wing government for 16 years, will likely not see it for 4 more years (if ever). The rest can be easily compromised by economic stagnation, to have good social security you need a lot of wealth, and a lot of immigration from poorer countries
- j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
  I don't get your point. I mean, I agree with the danger of a far-right president in France in '22, and I'd like to see another party in power in Germany, but what does that have to do with the current quality of life? Right now, the social security system works, does it not? Just from the perspective of a citizen ... I have health and unemployment insurance, good public transportation, I won't get shot in public, the police will less likely kill me, etc. I really don't get your point. Because there's stuff that could go wrong, the good things we have are irrelevant?
  - oytis 5y ago
    The first part was about quality of democracy. Europe has problems with the far-right too, and American democracy at least makes it possible that it's being interchangeably ruled by different parties with pretty distinct policies. The second part is, well, like asking why should we sit in the lockdown and wear masks when not a lot of people are dying of covid right now. It's not something that may happen, it will happen if evething goes as it goes and no one makes anything about it
    - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
      So you're saying parties in Europe are interchangeable? We know what happens with Covid due to science, modeling and stuff. But a virus spread is oretty easy to model compared to a society and its economy. So until now it worked really nice, haven't seen a lot of studies saying it won't in the future, rather the opposite. Edit: or do you mean because we're getting older and hace fewer kids? Yeah that'll be a challange. Bit eventually every country will experience that, so lets figure out how to deal with this! And yeah, also let immigrants in ;)
pelasaco 5y ago
To be fair in France we get as well a lot of shooting, mass stabbing or other forms of terrorism. However it has a totally different cause.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago

>we're not getting shot in school, and also we're not on the way to be ruled by a fascist I downvoted you since you're going massively off-topic with your generalizations about the US that have no place on HN.

j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
Thank you for your thoughtful downvote. However I don't really follow. The discussion is clearly about politics here, so it probably does not count as off-topic. Also, fascism has a massive influence on the economy, making it relevant. If you merely dispute my view that there's fascist tendencies in the US, that is fair, but no reason for a downvote, I'd argue.
- Delk 5y ago
  As a European who probably agrees with you regarding many policies: You may be able to argue that quality of life is better in Europe or with European-style policies [1]. Everyone having health insurance and less of a need to worry about your basics needs met are fair points. I wouldn't want to live in a society that doesn't seem to care that much about economic equality. But "about to be ruled by a fascist"? Trump lost the election. Sure the diverging right is worrying, but is the country "about to be ruled" by a fascist? And "getting shot at school/street" is pretty much just a cheap shot. I haven't been to the U.S., but I'm willing to wager that for most Americans getting shot is not a primary concern. I'm not saying shootings don't happen or that they aren't tragic, because they do and they are, or that the U.S. don't have a problem. But when they do happen, they obviously get so much visibility and attention that their emotional effect is greater than their actual chances of affecting you in your life, in a way that's not entirely dissimilar to terrorist attacks. That makes appealing to shootings a populist-style emotional argument: easy to throw around and force people's attention with, not entirely truthful, and much more work to argue against than the argument would substantially warrant. That also makes it pretty annoying and bothersome. So, I kind of get why people might not like your argumentation style. [1] Although both Europe and the U.S. are diverse enough that it's going to get tricky; I'm not sure there is such a homogenous thing as "Europe" when it comes to quality of life. But that's a digression.
  - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
    > So, I kind of get why people might not like your argumentation style. Yeah. I know I should dial it down a little. But I'm actually really concerned about the US. They do have a lot of mass shootings, and not even tackling this problem does point to a larger dysfunction in the US. And Trump does not accept is loss and 60% of republicans agree. That's why I actually fear that the next elections in the US will not be democratic. https://snyder.substack.com/p/911-and-16 https://snyder.substack.com/p/911-and-16
    - whiddershins 5y ago
      You don’t understand what the mass shootings are and who does them.
      - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
        Yeah but the people writing the articles I read do.
        whiddershins 5y ago
        Really? I could have sworn you mentioned school shootings. Which are rare, which is why they make the headlines. In Chicago there are mass shootings every weekend that get no press coverage. The inner city gang warfare and similar makes up the vast majority of mass shootings in the U.S. Mass shootings have basically nothing to do with small town and rural NRA members. Did you already know all that?
        j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
        In my last post, where I actually agreed that I should dial it down a little, I therefore wrote about mass shootings. I really don't care about who shoots who. You know, as an European I know for a fact that if less people have guns, less shooting happens, no matter who's the shooter. And of course your rural NRA member has a huge influence on inner city shootings, after all the NRA is also responsible for the laws leading to that many guns circulating. So yeah, I know those things, and I know how wrong you are. Again, I actually live in a country with very few mass shootings, whatever the NRA tells you, they do exist. It seems like NRA "a good guy with a gun" propaganda works though, although I can't really believe that.

oytis 5y ago

Denmark legally discriminates agwinst "non-western" immigrants and officially aims at not taking any refugees at all. France is ruled by a rather right-wing government and has a chance to have a far-right one next. Germany hasn't seen a left-wing government for 16 years, will likely not see it for 4 more years (if ever). The rest can be easily compromised by economic stagnation, to have good social security you need a lot of wealth, and a lot of immigration from poorer countries

j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
I don't get your point. I mean, I agree with the danger of a far-right president in France in '22, and I'd like to see another party in power in Germany, but what does that have to do with the current quality of life? Right now, the social security system works, does it not? Just from the perspective of a citizen ... I have health and unemployment insurance, good public transportation, I won't get shot in public, the police will less likely kill me, etc. I really don't get your point. Because there's stuff that could go wrong, the good things we have are irrelevant?
- oytis 5y ago
  The first part was about quality of democracy. Europe has problems with the far-right too, and American democracy at least makes it possible that it's being interchangeably ruled by different parties with pretty distinct policies. The second part is, well, like asking why should we sit in the lockdown and wear masks when not a lot of people are dying of covid right now. It's not something that may happen, it will happen if evething goes as it goes and no one makes anything about it
  - j_wtf_all_taken 5y ago
    So you're saying parties in Europe are interchangeable? We know what happens with Covid due to science, modeling and stuff. But a virus spread is oretty easy to model compared to a society and its economy. So until now it worked really nice, haven't seen a lot of studies saying it won't in the future, rather the opposite. Edit: or do you mean because we're getting older and hace fewer kids? Yeah that'll be a challange. Bit eventually every country will experience that, so lets figure out how to deal with this! And yeah, also let immigrants in ;)

pelasaco 5y ago

To be fair in France we get as well a lot of shooting, mass stabbing or other forms of terrorism. However it has a totally different cause.