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> the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome. And what would be the likelyhood

> the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome. And what would be the likelyhood of the child of a single mom working 2 unskilled jobs to be either of those? Like I mentioned in a different comment, Systematic barriers exist without being consciously built and are then perpetuated as just the natural way of things.

plank_time 5y ago
Someone I know is an illegal immigrant from Central America. She cleans houses for a living. Her husband is also illegal immigrant and he paints houses. Her daughter is going to one of the top private schools in SF, on a full scholarship. She dreams of Yale, and I would bet that she gets it easily. If you are dedicated to education, there is plenty of opportunity to succeed. It’s sad that some bloodlines don’t make it out of poverty easily, but that’s just how the world works. For those that make the effort, it’s very available.
- meheleventyone 5y ago
  That’s not actually “just how the world works” that’s “how people have chosen to organise society”. Other places work differently with different outcomes.
  - janeroe 5y ago
    Too bad, "I have no other [ways to organize society] for you" (Stalin [my edit]). In a paradise there is no shortage of anything and everyone has whatever they wish. Not the case for the real world we live in. Take it or leave it.
    - meheleventyone 5y ago
      Well that’s a non-sequitur. The idea that the only other approach is an unattainable paradise is nonsense. There are so many different approaches in operation on this planet right now after all.
- devnonymous 5y ago
  > It’s sad that some bloodlines don’t make it out of poverty easily, but that’s just how the world works. Right, right, my mistake, this is nothing like the Varana system.
  - plank_time 5y ago
    It’s only varnana if you think of yourself as a victim. Those that choose to not think of themselves as victims can succeed unfettered if they focus their efforts in the right direction.
    - devnonymous 5y ago
      Ah ok, so if the daughter of the person you mentioned doesn't get into Yale on a scholarship where as the boy who has Yale alumni parents and didn't need scholarship did get in, then it is perhaps because the girl didn't think of herself as a Yale student. It's all clear to me now.
mlyle 5y ago
Obviously paths out of poverty need to be improved-- and everyone given as much of a hand up as possible. And, what you're saying is a bit orthogonal to what was discussed here: attaining social mobility for everyone doesn't need to erase familial proclivities towards certain professions. In your eagerness to speak harshly to everyone else here, I think you're missing that what others are discussing is not what you're attacking. Indeed, uh... I left a tech career where I averaged making 7 figures a year to run youth programs and help kids from non-engineering backgrounds-- including a large share of disadvantaged kids-- into having many of the same kinds of advantages my kids do in being able to imagine an engineering career and learn basic skills and the details of the path at an early age. So, please don't lecture me about systematic barriers. You don't need to tear down family traditions and passing down of skills to greatly reduce inequity: you just need to ensure that everyone gets a reasonable chance at a path upwards. Some can show up in my programs and become engineers and mathematicians; others can go in someone else's speech program and become marketers and lawyers; other, more fortunate people, can lean on familial upbringing; and yet others can choose something other than the path of least resistance and do something less probable.
- devnonymous 5y ago
  Where exactly did I attempt to tear down family traditions? This entire thread of conversation began with my highlighting the parallels of how the Varana system, supposedly of divine origins, accepted and prevalent, even today in Silicon Valley[1], is not dissimilar to what the original article and the parent comment spoke about. Though sure, please do go ahead and argue the things that I allegedly said. [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+caste+system&t=fpas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+caste+system&t=fpas...
  - mlyle 5y ago
    You went on the attack vs. someone who pointed out that you were likely to follow in the footsteps of your parents. It's not a social justice or caste issue to have a probability distribution that says, say, within the trades, that a plumber's kid is more likely to be a plumber than an electrician, and vice-versa of an electrician's kid, when the two professions are of equal status. If there's a whole lot of people below the class of tradesmen who have no real path to moving up-- that is a social justice, class, or caste issue. But surely not all manifestations of not-quite-equally likely outcome are social justice, class, or caste issues. > Though sure, please do go ahead and argue the things that I allegedly said. Seriously, the rush to sarcasm/abrasive language is not helpful to actually figuring out what you're arguing or to having a productive conversation.

plank_time 5y ago

Someone I know is an illegal immigrant from Central America. She cleans houses for a living. Her husband is also illegal immigrant and he paints houses. Her daughter is going to one of the top private schools in SF, on a full scholarship. She dreams of Yale, and I would bet that she gets it easily. If you are dedicated to education, there is plenty of opportunity to succeed. It’s sad that some bloodlines don’t make it out of poverty easily, but that’s just how the world works. For those that make the effort, it’s very available.

meheleventyone 5y ago
That’s not actually “just how the world works” that’s “how people have chosen to organise society”. Other places work differently with different outcomes.
- janeroe 5y ago
  Too bad, "I have no other [ways to organize society] for you" (Stalin [my edit]). In a paradise there is no shortage of anything and everyone has whatever they wish. Not the case for the real world we live in. Take it or leave it.
  - meheleventyone 5y ago
    Well that’s a non-sequitur. The idea that the only other approach is an unattainable paradise is nonsense. There are so many different approaches in operation on this planet right now after all.
devnonymous 5y ago
> It’s sad that some bloodlines don’t make it out of poverty easily, but that’s just how the world works. Right, right, my mistake, this is nothing like the Varana system.
- plank_time 5y ago
  It’s only varnana if you think of yourself as a victim. Those that choose to not think of themselves as victims can succeed unfettered if they focus their efforts in the right direction.
  - devnonymous 5y ago
    Ah ok, so if the daughter of the person you mentioned doesn't get into Yale on a scholarship where as the boy who has Yale alumni parents and didn't need scholarship did get in, then it is perhaps because the girl didn't think of herself as a Yale student. It's all clear to me now.

mlyle 5y ago

Obviously paths out of poverty need to be improved-- and everyone given as much of a hand up as possible. And, what you're saying is a bit orthogonal to what was discussed here: attaining social mobility for everyone doesn't need to erase familial proclivities towards certain professions. In your eagerness to speak harshly to everyone else here, I think you're missing that what others are discussing is not what you're attacking. Indeed, uh... I left a tech career where I averaged making 7 figures a year to run youth programs and help kids from non-engineering backgrounds-- including a large share of disadvantaged kids-- into having many of the same kinds of advantages my kids do in being able to imagine an engineering career and learn basic skills and the details of the path at an early age. So, please don't lecture me about systematic barriers. You don't need to tear down family traditions and passing down of skills to greatly reduce inequity: you just need to ensure that everyone gets a reasonable chance at a path upwards. Some can show up in my programs and become engineers and mathematicians; others can go in someone else's speech program and become marketers and lawyers; other, more fortunate people, can lean on familial upbringing; and yet others can choose something other than the path of least resistance and do something less probable.

devnonymous 5y ago
Where exactly did I attempt to tear down family traditions? This entire thread of conversation began with my highlighting the parallels of how the Varana system, supposedly of divine origins, accepted and prevalent, even today in Silicon Valley[1], is not dissimilar to what the original article and the parent comment spoke about. Though sure, please do go ahead and argue the things that I allegedly said. [1] https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+caste+system&t=fpas&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=silicon+valley+caste+system&t=fpas...
- mlyle 5y ago
  You went on the attack vs. someone who pointed out that you were likely to follow in the footsteps of your parents. It's not a social justice or caste issue to have a probability distribution that says, say, within the trades, that a plumber's kid is more likely to be a plumber than an electrician, and vice-versa of an electrician's kid, when the two professions are of equal status. If there's a whole lot of people below the class of tradesmen who have no real path to moving up-- that is a social justice, class, or caste issue. But surely not all manifestations of not-quite-equally likely outcome are social justice, class, or caste issues. > Though sure, please do go ahead and argue the things that I allegedly said. Seriously, the rush to sarcasm/abrasive language is not helpful to actually figuring out what you're arguing or to having a productive conversation.