5 ms·

Also wages in tech in the EU are laughably bad compared to USA. I'm in the UK, same problem. Yet everyone seems to think that a couple weeks more holiday makes

Also wages in tech in the EU are laughably bad compared to USA. I'm in the UK, same problem. Yet everyone seems to think that a couple weeks more holiday makes up for it.

tcoff91 5y ago
Isn’t university for your children free in Germany? That’s like a 100-200 thousand dollar savings if you have two kids you want to put through college vs the USA.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Or the healthcare, saner rent prices, better traffic because of public transit?
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  The average college graduate in the US has $35,000 in debt. There are plenty of excellent, cheap public universities. If you don’t want to work in journalism, academia, management consulting or one of the other bastions of privilege and pedigree there’s little reason to pay the premium necessary to go to a top tier private university. And every single person who pays sticker price to go to a no name private college is wasting their money.
- developer93 5y ago
  I believe you have to pay 500 EUR/year, it may have changed though.
  - anoncake 5y ago
    That's roughly correct, it depends on the university. Usually most of the cost is for the public transport ticket.
zingar 5y ago
It's strange but true. I live in the UK and I think I could get paid 3-5x more in the US. But even though I'm annoyed by that pay gap, I will never work without healthcare and only two weeks of PTO. At least job satisfaction doesn't change, I work with startups that interest me and I get to hack on a stimulating open source project. I'm just healthy while I do it.
- reader_mode 5y ago
  I don't get this part - 2 weeks PTO - OK - tech companies are flexible in looking for good talent - if you're getting paid 2x you can work 6months a year to break even. Now taking off 6 months unpaid isn't realistic - but a month off isn't that unusual. And the healthcare part what are you even talking about - what employer doesn't provide healthcare in tech ? You'll likely have a good plan an better coverage than NHS (eg. decent dental)
  - dukeyukey 5y ago
    > You'll likely have a good plan an better coverage than NHS What would an NHS-style plan cost in the US? Like, I'd be happy in a shared hospital room and having lower priority for non-emergency care, but in exchange having 0 co-pay, 0 deductible, 100% coverage for everything (including long-term care), 0 ambulance fees and a maximum prescription cost per item of $12/month?
    - midasuni 5y ago
      Per item? U.K. prescription costs £108 for 12 months, no matter how many items you have. (Unless you’re in scotland and Wales where it’s just free, because prescriptions are a trivial cost)
    - bennybob 5y ago
      Some of the NHS health care is shocking. I watched my dad dying on a ward with utterly shit jobs worth nursing staff. After enough of that he ended up in ICU with great care and died. Northern Ireland's NHS is an utter shambles. 3 week wait to see a GP. Surgery wait times of years. It's a crisis. I've got private health cover. Though don't be critical of the NHS, you ll be branded a heretic.
sdoering 5y ago
What is the overall cost of living associated with the respective salary. Amd of people proposing a free market, why is it a problem that suddenly the same job is paid more for in a more competitive job market? As others pointed out, CoL is also way lower in most parts were there are relevant jobs to be had. I am working a job that would pay at least double in SF. I can afford to pay the mortgage on a 130 square meter house with 500+ square meters of garden and relax by growing my own food as a hobby with 40 hours per week, 6 weeks of holiday, paid overtime, really good health care covered by insurance. I live in one of the four largest cities in Germany. So I benefit from the infrastructure like theater, Medical stuff and so on as well. And also the ability to start a business on the side with filling out a single form. And I am able to generate FU money from my main salary, go on trips, give to charity and such. Reading about insane prices for living in SF or other tech regions puts a damper on the high salaries IMHO. But I also define my life not by the amount on my pay check.
- ChuckNorris89 5y ago
  > I can afford to pay the mortgage on a 130 square meter house with 500+ square meters of garden and relax by growing my own food as a hobby with 40 hours per week How is that possible? When I look at typical wages in Germany (50k - 80k Euros) vs cost of houses that size in Germany's four biggest cities (800k to over 1 Million Euros), something does not add up. Either your pay is way above market rates or you got your property way below market rate. Either way, to me at least, your situation is extremely fortunate but you're an outlier and no developer moving to Germany could replicate it in the current market conditions.
  - sdoering 5y ago
    Bought a property for 210k in 2011. Invested 160k and a lot of manual labor for renovation. Current value is around 500k. Not sure were you have your numbers. But sure. I can get a similar property for 900k or more in some other parts of Hamburg. I could probably pay more than a million in the most prestigious parts. Living in a middle class area surrounded by greenery is more luxurious in my book, though.
thow-01187 5y ago
Wages in tech are laughably bad anywhere in the world, when compared to US. Tech landscape in Canada, Australia, Japan, Korea or Taiwan looks much more like Europe than like US. US is the outlier here, not Europe
developer93 5y ago
Yes but you get so much more for your taxes here that it evens out, in fact I think someone ran the numbers with Denmark and US as examples and actually the Denmark example had more disposable income after tax because the US person had to pay so much more for so much extra stuff that's included here.

Also wages in tech in the EU are laughably bad compared to USA. I'm in the UK, same problem. Yet everyone seems to think that a couple weeks more holiday makes up for it.

tcoff91 5y ago

Isn’t university for your children free in Germany? That’s like a 100-200 thousand dollar savings if you have two kids you want to put through college vs the USA.

Apocryphon 5y ago
Or the healthcare, saner rent prices, better traffic because of public transit?
barry-cotter 5y ago
The average college graduate in the US has $35,000 in debt. There are plenty of excellent, cheap public universities. If you don’t want to work in journalism, academia, management consulting or one of the other bastions of privilege and pedigree there’s little reason to pay the premium necessary to go to a top tier private university. And every single person who pays sticker price to go to a no name private college is wasting their money.
developer93 5y ago
I believe you have to pay 500 EUR/year, it may have changed though.
- anoncake 5y ago
  That's roughly correct, it depends on the university. Usually most of the cost is for the public transport ticket.

zingar 5y ago

It's strange but true. I live in the UK and I think I could get paid 3-5x more in the US. But even though I'm annoyed by that pay gap, I will never work without healthcare and only two weeks of PTO. At least job satisfaction doesn't change, I work with startups that interest me and I get to hack on a stimulating open source project. I'm just healthy while I do it.

reader_mode 5y ago
I don't get this part - 2 weeks PTO - OK - tech companies are flexible in looking for good talent - if you're getting paid 2x you can work 6months a year to break even. Now taking off 6 months unpaid isn't realistic - but a month off isn't that unusual. And the healthcare part what are you even talking about - what employer doesn't provide healthcare in tech ? You'll likely have a good plan an better coverage than NHS (eg. decent dental)
- dukeyukey 5y ago
  > You'll likely have a good plan an better coverage than NHS What would an NHS-style plan cost in the US? Like, I'd be happy in a shared hospital room and having lower priority for non-emergency care, but in exchange having 0 co-pay, 0 deductible, 100% coverage for everything (including long-term care), 0 ambulance fees and a maximum prescription cost per item of $12/month?
  - midasuni 5y ago
    Per item? U.K. prescription costs £108 for 12 months, no matter how many items you have. (Unless you’re in scotland and Wales where it’s just free, because prescriptions are a trivial cost)
  - bennybob 5y ago
    Some of the NHS health care is shocking. I watched my dad dying on a ward with utterly shit jobs worth nursing staff. After enough of that he ended up in ICU with great care and died. Northern Ireland's NHS is an utter shambles. 3 week wait to see a GP. Surgery wait times of years. It's a crisis. I've got private health cover. Though don't be critical of the NHS, you ll be branded a heretic.

sdoering 5y ago

What is the overall cost of living associated with the respective salary. Amd of people proposing a free market, why is it a problem that suddenly the same job is paid more for in a more competitive job market? As others pointed out, CoL is also way lower in most parts were there are relevant jobs to be had. I am working a job that would pay at least double in SF. I can afford to pay the mortgage on a 130 square meter house with 500+ square meters of garden and relax by growing my own food as a hobby with 40 hours per week, 6 weeks of holiday, paid overtime, really good health care covered by insurance. I live in one of the four largest cities in Germany. So I benefit from the infrastructure like theater, Medical stuff and so on as well. And also the ability to start a business on the side with filling out a single form. And I am able to generate FU money from my main salary, go on trips, give to charity and such. Reading about insane prices for living in SF or other tech regions puts a damper on the high salaries IMHO. But I also define my life not by the amount on my pay check.

ChuckNorris89 5y ago
> I can afford to pay the mortgage on a 130 square meter house with 500+ square meters of garden and relax by growing my own food as a hobby with 40 hours per week How is that possible? When I look at typical wages in Germany (50k - 80k Euros) vs cost of houses that size in Germany's four biggest cities (800k to over 1 Million Euros), something does not add up. Either your pay is way above market rates or you got your property way below market rate. Either way, to me at least, your situation is extremely fortunate but you're an outlier and no developer moving to Germany could replicate it in the current market conditions.
- sdoering 5y ago
  Bought a property for 210k in 2011. Invested 160k and a lot of manual labor for renovation. Current value is around 500k. Not sure were you have your numbers. But sure. I can get a similar property for 900k or more in some other parts of Hamburg. I could probably pay more than a million in the most prestigious parts. Living in a middle class area surrounded by greenery is more luxurious in my book, though.

thow-01187 5y ago

Wages in tech are laughably bad anywhere in the world, when compared to US. Tech landscape in Canada, Australia, Japan, Korea or Taiwan looks much more like Europe than like US. US is the outlier here, not Europe

developer93 5y ago

Yes but you get so much more for your taxes here that it evens out, in fact I think someone ran the numbers with Denmark and US as examples and actually the Denmark example had more disposable income after tax because the US person had to pay so much more for so much extra stuff that's included here.