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A very US mindset. I live in the US and I completely disagree with your outlook on life. Great food with friends, or a vacation with family provides so much mo

A very US mindset. I live in the US and I completely disagree with your outlook on life. Great food with friends, or a vacation with family provides so much more satisfaction to me than anything a job could provide. The only thing a job provides that those things can't is money. I'm not so egotistical to think that I'm special and not easily replaceable. I'm no Steve Jobs or Isaac Newton or Albert Einstein. I'm just a programmer. If I stopped working, society would not care at all. I bet you are not much different.

specialkfan 5y ago
Yep - it's this mindset that allows the US to be far more productive with arguably maybe a "lower" quality of life if you're benchmarking it against things like vacation time. It's all about trade-offs at the end of the day and what you choose to value. What folks in the US value are clearly different and therefore result in different priorities.
- iso1210 5y ago
  > it's this mindset that allows the US to be far more productive https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm GDP per hour worked for the US is $72/hour, same as Belgium. France is $68, Denmark $75, Germany $66. Is 9% "far more productive"? Japan FWIW is $47/hour.
  - nxc18 5y ago
    Yes but you’re missing the part of the conversation where it was established that US workers work more. https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2003/european-vacation-why-americans-work-more-than-europeans https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2003/european-vacatio... Anecdotally, it throws a wrench in the works when you can’t do any major projects over the winter or summer months because some portion of your team is going to be on a month-long vacation.
    - iso1210 5y ago
      That's not productivity
nxc18 5y ago
If you stopped working, society wouldn’t care. If everyone did, there would be a problem; no more good food or vacation accommodations. I’m frustrated in the lack of big picture thinking in this discussion generally. Imagine how much better off we’d all be if the people at Intel, Boeing, or Qualcomm took their jobs seriously. Imagine if there was (non-joke) US competition to DJI for drones. Imagine if there was an Android flagship CPU that wasn’t years behind last year’s the iPhone on day one. On the flip side, imagine if Google hadn’t gone out of their way to create street view, or the rest of the Maps system? The folks at Apple and Google aren’t Einstein or Newton, but they make a vigorous contribution to society nonetheless. Everyone has to do their part, and when they don’t, we are all poorer for it. The European attitude towards work isn’t fully entrenched in the US but it seems to be growing to our detriment.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Honestly, on the balance, I don't think any of the examples you mentioned would do that much to my general happiness. I care about the other things in life so much more than about processor performance. If Google Maps hadn't come someone else would do it. They didn't invent digital maps. I don't think society in general would be very different. If we lost basic things like safety, food, and so on, then yes that matters. But if we're being honest, big tech in the big picture of our daily lives is really just candy. The thing that is of much bigger import than all of those put together for most people is healthcare, housing, and eventually climate change.
  - nxc18 5y ago
    Again, very small-scale thinking that misses the forest for the trees. Yes, you don’t care about processor performance. Fine. What I care about is the people in my life not wasting time because of shitty Android phones. I care about things like being able to give my parents my old phones, which have years of productive life on them; Qualcomm is the reason that doesn’t work on Android. I care about the people who can’t afford the flagship; they deserve a great experience just as much as I do. Digital maps did exist before Google Maps. And they sucked. The industry was all about digital preparation of maps that would be printed. On paper. We don’t know that no one would have done it better; you could say electric cars would have happened anyway, except they didn’t happen until very recently. When a field technician can do a network trace to solve a power outage in minutes instead of hours, that matters. Big tech is enabling things like replacing pesticides with robotics, targeting fertilizer application based on need, and reducing the environmental impact of the food you eat. Big tech is doing things like improving the safety of cars with automatic emergency braking, giving you early earthquake notifications (buying precious moments to duck, cover, and hold on), predicting and warning about dangerous weather with increasing accuracy, and improving medical diagnosis among many, many, many other achievements. So yes, of course, ‘just candy’. People doing their jobs well, consistently, is how healthcare is delivered, housing is produced, and climate change will be solved. The US could implement a social safety net regardless of cultural issues and it very well should. 3 month vacations and slack work ethic will do absolutely nothing to solve healthcare, housing, or climate change, so I don’t really understand why those concerns are relevant.
chrisseaton 5y ago
> Great food with friends, or a vacation with family provides so much more satisfaction to me than anything a job could provide. But a better job, with more money, more time off, more relaxed conditions, lets you get more of these things you say you want. Also look at the current pandemic. Due to their work ethic and research power the US has been able to vaccinate their people so they can enjoy life again while much of the EU is still in lockdown.
- cube2222 5y ago
  Mentioning US research power here when the main vaccine being used - Pfizer - was developed in German BioNTech is quite weird. If you look at vaccination percentages[0] you'll also see that US and Europe are very close in that regard. I'm in my twenties in Poland and already got my second vaccine (yes, also Pfizer). As to the bigger discussion at hand, I don't see how taking vacations is contradictory to ambition and being driven to create something great. I don't like taking 4-week at a time vacations, but definitely want to have ~35 days off yearly, even though I really like my work and put a lot of effort into it. Creativity and motivation go out the window when I'm overworked and burned out. [0]: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    > Mentioning US research power here when the main vaccine being used - Pfizer - was developed in German BioNTech is quite weird. The US managed to independently produce a vaccine. No country in Europe managed that. For example the French vaccine is only just being trialed now. > you'll also see that US and Europe are very close in that regard What data are you reading? US has fully vaccinated 42% - Europe 23%. Deaths also higher in Europe. I guess all those long lunches were worth it though?
    - cube2222 5y ago
      > The US managed to independently produce a vaccine. No country in Europe managed that. Sure, it's a true statement, still doesn't change the fact that for Pfizer the manpower was European, the capital was US. At least that's what I've been reading. You're obviously right about the other vaccines, not denying that. > What data are you reading? US has fully vaccinated 42% - Europe 23%. You're right, I was reading into first-dose percentages, the US has been much better at the fully-dosed percentage. > Deaths also higher in Europe. Here you're wrong (or we have diverging sources, or I'm still bad at reading graphs) as far as meaningful statistics go. Using worldometer[0] and quick Excel, looking at per capita deaths it's 1451 per million for Europe, 1641 for the EU and 1846 for the US. > I guess all those long lunches were worth it though? I actually prefer to go without lunch and finish earlier :) Isn't it the norm to take a 30-60 minute lunch break at the US too though? [0]:https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

specialkfan 5y ago

Yep - it's this mindset that allows the US to be far more productive with arguably maybe a "lower" quality of life if you're benchmarking it against things like vacation time. It's all about trade-offs at the end of the day and what you choose to value. What folks in the US value are clearly different and therefore result in different priorities.

iso1210 5y ago
> it's this mindset that allows the US to be far more productive https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm GDP per hour worked for the US is $72/hour, same as Belgium. France is $68, Denmark $75, Germany $66. Is 9% "far more productive"? Japan FWIW is $47/hour.
- nxc18 5y ago
  Yes but you’re missing the part of the conversation where it was established that US workers work more. https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2003/european-vacation-why-americans-work-more-than-europeans https://www.minneapolisfed.org/article/2003/european-vacatio... Anecdotally, it throws a wrench in the works when you can’t do any major projects over the winter or summer months because some portion of your team is going to be on a month-long vacation.
  - iso1210 5y ago
    That's not productivity

nxc18 5y ago

If you stopped working, society wouldn’t care. If everyone did, there would be a problem; no more good food or vacation accommodations. I’m frustrated in the lack of big picture thinking in this discussion generally. Imagine how much better off we’d all be if the people at Intel, Boeing, or Qualcomm took their jobs seriously. Imagine if there was (non-joke) US competition to DJI for drones. Imagine if there was an Android flagship CPU that wasn’t years behind last year’s the iPhone on day one. On the flip side, imagine if Google hadn’t gone out of their way to create street view, or the rest of the Maps system? The folks at Apple and Google aren’t Einstein or Newton, but they make a vigorous contribution to society nonetheless. Everyone has to do their part, and when they don’t, we are all poorer for it. The European attitude towards work isn’t fully entrenched in the US but it seems to be growing to our detriment.

sudosysgen 5y ago
Honestly, on the balance, I don't think any of the examples you mentioned would do that much to my general happiness. I care about the other things in life so much more than about processor performance. If Google Maps hadn't come someone else would do it. They didn't invent digital maps. I don't think society in general would be very different. If we lost basic things like safety, food, and so on, then yes that matters. But if we're being honest, big tech in the big picture of our daily lives is really just candy. The thing that is of much bigger import than all of those put together for most people is healthcare, housing, and eventually climate change.
- nxc18 5y ago
  Again, very small-scale thinking that misses the forest for the trees. Yes, you don’t care about processor performance. Fine. What I care about is the people in my life not wasting time because of shitty Android phones. I care about things like being able to give my parents my old phones, which have years of productive life on them; Qualcomm is the reason that doesn’t work on Android. I care about the people who can’t afford the flagship; they deserve a great experience just as much as I do. Digital maps did exist before Google Maps. And they sucked. The industry was all about digital preparation of maps that would be printed. On paper. We don’t know that no one would have done it better; you could say electric cars would have happened anyway, except they didn’t happen until very recently. When a field technician can do a network trace to solve a power outage in minutes instead of hours, that matters. Big tech is enabling things like replacing pesticides with robotics, targeting fertilizer application based on need, and reducing the environmental impact of the food you eat. Big tech is doing things like improving the safety of cars with automatic emergency braking, giving you early earthquake notifications (buying precious moments to duck, cover, and hold on), predicting and warning about dangerous weather with increasing accuracy, and improving medical diagnosis among many, many, many other achievements. So yes, of course, ‘just candy’. People doing their jobs well, consistently, is how healthcare is delivered, housing is produced, and climate change will be solved. The US could implement a social safety net regardless of cultural issues and it very well should. 3 month vacations and slack work ethic will do absolutely nothing to solve healthcare, housing, or climate change, so I don’t really understand why those concerns are relevant.

chrisseaton 5y ago

> Great food with friends, or a vacation with family provides so much more satisfaction to me than anything a job could provide. But a better job, with more money, more time off, more relaxed conditions, lets you get more of these things you say you want. Also look at the current pandemic. Due to their work ethic and research power the US has been able to vaccinate their people so they can enjoy life again while much of the EU is still in lockdown.

cube2222 5y ago
Mentioning US research power here when the main vaccine being used - Pfizer - was developed in German BioNTech is quite weird. If you look at vaccination percentages[0] you'll also see that US and Europe are very close in that regard. I'm in my twenties in Poland and already got my second vaccine (yes, also Pfizer). As to the bigger discussion at hand, I don't see how taking vacations is contradictory to ambition and being driven to create something great. I don't like taking 4-week at a time vacations, but definitely want to have ~35 days off yearly, even though I really like my work and put a lot of effort into it. Creativity and motivation go out the window when I'm overworked and burned out. [0]: https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations https://ourworldindata.org/covid-vaccinations
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  > Mentioning US research power here when the main vaccine being used - Pfizer - was developed in German BioNTech is quite weird. The US managed to independently produce a vaccine. No country in Europe managed that. For example the French vaccine is only just being trialed now. > you'll also see that US and Europe are very close in that regard What data are you reading? US has fully vaccinated 42% - Europe 23%. Deaths also higher in Europe. I guess all those long lunches were worth it though?
  - cube2222 5y ago
    > The US managed to independently produce a vaccine. No country in Europe managed that. Sure, it's a true statement, still doesn't change the fact that for Pfizer the manpower was European, the capital was US. At least that's what I've been reading. You're obviously right about the other vaccines, not denying that. > What data are you reading? US has fully vaccinated 42% - Europe 23%. You're right, I was reading into first-dose percentages, the US has been much better at the fully-dosed percentage. > Deaths also higher in Europe. Here you're wrong (or we have diverging sources, or I'm still bad at reading graphs) as far as meaningful statistics go. Using worldometer[0] and quick Excel, looking at per capita deaths it's 1451 per million for Europe, 1641 for the EU and 1846 for the US. > I guess all those long lunches were worth it though? I actually prefer to go without lunch and finish earlier :) Isn't it the norm to take a 30-60 minute lunch break at the US too though? [0]:https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/