6 ms·

> Men are not doing as well as women in school. Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women. I'm not just playing with words; it is really

> Men are not doing as well as women in school. Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women. I'm not just playing with words; it is really important to frame the share of responsibility correctly. It is the school's job to educate the kid, not kid's job to compensate for the dysfunctions of an education system. I'll generalize because I don't have any detailed data; anyone from the front-line educator to the curriculum designer to the budget maker is potentially responsible for this failure. On this particular issue, they are the ones not doing well, not the kids.

cjohnson318 5y ago
Men run most governments. Men own most companies. Men dominate the higher levels of corporations. Most engineers, doctors, lawyers, investors, and other highly paid professionals are men. Men simply own more capital than women, by a huge margin. It looks like schools are performing better for men than women.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  You are looking at metrics with a lag period of 50 years, and also assuming a 50 50 split is the natural state
- zizee 5y ago
  > Most ... doctors, lawyers ... are men. Today there are more women graduating medical and law school than men. Given the trends the current imbalance (of sheer numbers) will be a thing of the past in a decade or two. > It looks like schools are performing better for men than women. Or school isn't the only factor? Schools could be failing boys, and society could be failing women in other ways.
- acituan 5y ago
  Allow me to correct the two logical distortions in your proposition. Distortion 1) You can't take the outliers of a flatter distribution and generalize that to the entire population. You can't even compare the averages of two separate distributions without qualifiers. It is true, most of the people who run governments are men. Most of the people who own companies are men. Most of the people who dominate C levels are men. Most highly paid professionals are mostly held by men. Most of the top outliers of capital ownership are men. But it is also true most men don't run governments. Most men are not even remotely close to running companies. Most men are not C level execs. Most men don't have high paying jobs. Most men don't have any capital (if not negative). Distortion 2) Even if it was true that it was exclusively powerful men's fault that boys are failing, it is completely irrelevant to bring it up when talking about men as victims, unless one would also suggest that boys somehow deserve to suffer educational disadvantages because of those men have a lot of capital, or there is some hidden variable that connects the two events.
  - cjohnson318 5y ago
    So, what is your take on this? Do we ignore the fact that the top of our society is dominated by men and only focus on the men in the 40th to 60th percentile of income? Even then, you would see a similar pattern between the earning potential between men and women. I just fail to see where men are getting a raw deal here.
    - CapricornNoble 5y ago
      >>>I just fail to see where men are getting a raw deal here. Start with men suffering ~90% of workplace fatalities? https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf Why is there no push for women to be equally represented in the jobs that SUCK? Where are the feminists advocating for 50% of coal miners and loggers to be female? Nowhere to be found....because they want to secure the benefits that accrue to a small fraction of men, produced by the whole civilization (C-level positions, etc.) without sharing the bone-crushing burdens endured by the larger swathe of the male population that actually enables it.
      - madaxe_again 5y ago
        >> Start with men suffering ~90% of workplace fatalities? Well, given that we’re talking about labour… And how many men die in childbirth? Men have a choice to take dangerous jobs. Women don’t have a choice to have medical complications during labour.
        A_non_e-moose 5y ago
        > And how many men die in childbirth? I'd say about 50% of the neonatal death rate. :) Seriously though, US has an unexpectedly high maternal death rate for a western country: https://www.statista.com/chart/23541/maternal-mortality-developed-countries/ https://www.statista.com/chart/23541/maternal-mortality-deve...
        CapricornNoble 5y ago
        >>>And how many men die in childbirth? 100% of the males who get naturally pregnant. Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. It's almost like there are biological differences between men and women, and that these organisms are largely optimized for distinct roles in the human system. >>>Men have a choice to take dangerous jobs. If men flat-out refused to do dangerous work....our entire industrialized economy would collapse, because at the end of the day all of it is built on top of natural resource extraction. Are you suggesting that all those men digging rare earth metals out of the ground should just #learntocode? >>>Women don’t have a choice to have medical complications during labour. But they DO have choice to not get pregnant at all, right? If men are accountable for their choice of profession and the inherent risks, are women not accountable for their reproductive choices and inherent risks? If reducing (obviously gender-skewed) labor complications is a valid societal concern, than shouldn't reducing (also gender-skewed) workplace fatalities also be a valid societal concern? I'm not really sure what you are arguing here with the pregnancy angle.
- random314 5y ago
  Men are subject to more natural selection pressure than women. There is genetic evidence for this.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  You do understand there’s lag between school outcomes and mid-career adults, yes?
dragonwriter 5y ago
> > Men are not doing as well as women in school. > Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women. Maybe men are just not inherently less suited to academic success, which is being made more clear now that systematic discrimination in their favor isn’t preventing equal-terms comparisons with women in that domain. Equality of opportunity doesn't mean equality of outcomes, after all.
- acituan 5y ago
  > Maybe men are just not inherently less suited to academic success Maybe. A strong essentialist proposition requires an equally strong evidence, though. Have you got any? > systematic discrimination in their favor isn’t preventing equal-terms comparisons with women in that domain What positive systemic discrimination do boys receive in education? Since we are not observing a sudden drop after K-12 but a longitudinal effect, please explain starting from K, if any.
- machello13 5y ago
  If that were true then why wouldn’t you want to change academia so that it works well for both men and women? Wouldn’t that be the obvious ethical path to take?
  - MyHypatia 5y ago
    I agree with you that changing academia so it works well for both men and women is the right thing to do. Find ways to help men improve reading and writing skills so they aren't left behind, and help women improve math and computer skills so they aren't left behind. The purpose of education is to uplift. Sometimes we get too caught up in it as a competition.

cjohnson318 5y ago

Men run most governments. Men own most companies. Men dominate the higher levels of corporations. Most engineers, doctors, lawyers, investors, and other highly paid professionals are men. Men simply own more capital than women, by a huge margin. It looks like schools are performing better for men than women.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
You are looking at metrics with a lag period of 50 years, and also assuming a 50 50 split is the natural state
zizee 5y ago
> Most ... doctors, lawyers ... are men. Today there are more women graduating medical and law school than men. Given the trends the current imbalance (of sheer numbers) will be a thing of the past in a decade or two. > It looks like schools are performing better for men than women. Or school isn't the only factor? Schools could be failing boys, and society could be failing women in other ways.
acituan 5y ago
Allow me to correct the two logical distortions in your proposition. Distortion 1) You can't take the outliers of a flatter distribution and generalize that to the entire population. You can't even compare the averages of two separate distributions without qualifiers. It is true, most of the people who run governments are men. Most of the people who own companies are men. Most of the people who dominate C levels are men. Most highly paid professionals are mostly held by men. Most of the top outliers of capital ownership are men. But it is also true most men don't run governments. Most men are not even remotely close to running companies. Most men are not C level execs. Most men don't have high paying jobs. Most men don't have any capital (if not negative). Distortion 2) Even if it was true that it was exclusively powerful men's fault that boys are failing, it is completely irrelevant to bring it up when talking about men as victims, unless one would also suggest that boys somehow deserve to suffer educational disadvantages because of those men have a lot of capital, or there is some hidden variable that connects the two events.
- cjohnson318 5y ago
  So, what is your take on this? Do we ignore the fact that the top of our society is dominated by men and only focus on the men in the 40th to 60th percentile of income? Even then, you would see a similar pattern between the earning potential between men and women. I just fail to see where men are getting a raw deal here.
  - CapricornNoble 5y ago
    >>>I just fail to see where men are getting a raw deal here. Start with men suffering ~90% of workplace fatalities? https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf https://www.bls.gov/news.release/pdf/cfoi.pdf Why is there no push for women to be equally represented in the jobs that SUCK? Where are the feminists advocating for 50% of coal miners and loggers to be female? Nowhere to be found....because they want to secure the benefits that accrue to a small fraction of men, produced by the whole civilization (C-level positions, etc.) without sharing the bone-crushing burdens endured by the larger swathe of the male population that actually enables it.
    - madaxe_again 5y ago
      >> Start with men suffering ~90% of workplace fatalities? Well, given that we’re talking about labour… And how many men die in childbirth? Men have a choice to take dangerous jobs. Women don’t have a choice to have medical complications during labour.
      - A_non_e-moose 5y ago
        > And how many men die in childbirth? I'd say about 50% of the neonatal death rate. :) Seriously though, US has an unexpectedly high maternal death rate for a western country: https://www.statista.com/chart/23541/maternal-mortality-developed-countries/ https://www.statista.com/chart/23541/maternal-mortality-deve...
      - CapricornNoble 5y ago
        >>>And how many men die in childbirth? 100% of the males who get naturally pregnant. Ask a silly question, get a silly answer. It's almost like there are biological differences between men and women, and that these organisms are largely optimized for distinct roles in the human system. >>>Men have a choice to take dangerous jobs. If men flat-out refused to do dangerous work....our entire industrialized economy would collapse, because at the end of the day all of it is built on top of natural resource extraction. Are you suggesting that all those men digging rare earth metals out of the ground should just #learntocode? >>>Women don’t have a choice to have medical complications during labour. But they DO have choice to not get pregnant at all, right? If men are accountable for their choice of profession and the inherent risks, are women not accountable for their reproductive choices and inherent risks? If reducing (obviously gender-skewed) labor complications is a valid societal concern, than shouldn't reducing (also gender-skewed) workplace fatalities also be a valid societal concern? I'm not really sure what you are arguing here with the pregnancy angle.
random314 5y ago
Men are subject to more natural selection pressure than women. There is genetic evidence for this.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
You do understand there’s lag between school outcomes and mid-career adults, yes?

dragonwriter 5y ago

> > Men are not doing as well as women in school. > Schools are not performing as well for men as they do for women. Maybe men are just not inherently less suited to academic success, which is being made more clear now that systematic discrimination in their favor isn’t preventing equal-terms comparisons with women in that domain. Equality of opportunity doesn't mean equality of outcomes, after all.

acituan 5y ago
> Maybe men are just not inherently less suited to academic success Maybe. A strong essentialist proposition requires an equally strong evidence, though. Have you got any? > systematic discrimination in their favor isn’t preventing equal-terms comparisons with women in that domain What positive systemic discrimination do boys receive in education? Since we are not observing a sudden drop after K-12 but a longitudinal effect, please explain starting from K, if any.
machello13 5y ago
If that were true then why wouldn’t you want to change academia so that it works well for both men and women? Wouldn’t that be the obvious ethical path to take?
- MyHypatia 5y ago
  I agree with you that changing academia so it works well for both men and women is the right thing to do. Find ways to help men improve reading and writing skills so they aren't left behind, and help women improve math and computer skills so they aren't left behind. The purpose of education is to uplift. Sometimes we get too caught up in it as a competition.