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> but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. "69% of Yale students come fro

by rkk3 5y ago

> but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. > donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever Did you miss the Varsity Blues scandal? Official donations are uncommon and more reserved for the Ultra High Net worth, but they are a thing, Jared Kushner was the literal poster-child for it. The most prevalent and whitewashed pay to play path is getting your child do an expensive specialty sport (Lacrosse, Fencing, Crew, Equestrian) & hiring college advisors & SAT prep. 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/it-costs-75925-to-go-to-yaleheres-how-much-students-actually-pay.html#:~:text=According%20to%20The%20New%20York,earning%2020%25%20of%20American%20households https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/it-costs-75925-to-go-to-yale....

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
> "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. This is still very different than the image painted by your GP, at least in my mind.
- rkk3 5y ago
  They have a particularly scathing take on the idea that higher education is a finishing school.
  - krastanov 5y ago
    Could you elaborate? I do not really get what you mean.
    - rkk3 5y ago
      They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. "A finishing school is a school for young women that focuses on teaching social graces and upper-class cultural rites as a preparation for entry into society" [1] "a philosophy of education that empowers individuals with broad knowledge and transferable skills, and a stronger sense of values, ethics, and civic engagement ... characterised by challenging encounters with important issues, and more a way of studying than a specific course or field of study" [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education
      - zumu 5y ago
        > They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families send their kids to schools with the children of other rich families. This tight coupling of social and economic class is the real issue and radically changing a few schools' admission policies isn't going to dismantle that.
        rkk3 5y ago
        > Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Being trained for an elite social circle is the entire value proposition of a finishing school, not sure where you see a disagreement. > Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families send their kids to schools with the children of other rich families. These days it's less about meeting your spouse and more a gateway to future income and prestige opportunities; IB, MGMT Consulting, Big Tech or to Law School (Politics). Those tracks and opportunities will still be there and be attractive if more poor people were admitted.
        zumu 5y ago
        > These days it's less about meeting your spouse and more a gateway to future income and prestige opportunities; IB, MGMT Consulting, Big Tech or to Law School (Politics). Those tracks and opportunities will still be there and be attractive if more poor people were admitted. Unless there are specific reforms to talk about it's hard to argue further. However, clearly the "Ivy League Cartel" is colluding to limit enrollment of poorer people.
        SantalBlush 5y ago
        >Being trained for an elite social circle is the entire value proposition of a finishing school, not sure where you see a disagreement. Gaining access to elite social circles is not the same thing as being trained for those circles. There are plenty of institutions that enable elite networking that have nothing to do with finishing school, so it's a false equivalence.
- zumu 5y ago
  I must have misrepresented my opinion then. My thesis lies not in the absence of students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds but in the clustering of students from higher socioeconomic backgrounds and the value in exposure to such circles.
krastanov 5y ago
Varsity Blues scandal: where a coach was defrauding the university by being paid by parents to falsly recommend students. Then got fired and criminally charged when this was discovered. How is this an example of donating to the university in exchange for admission? Edit: more importantly though, your last paragraph is spot on. The rich (or simply upper middle class) paying for an exclusive better education, retaking expensive exams, and "fancy extracurriculars" during the K12 period is not a fair way to structure a society.
- rkk3 5y ago
  It was a whole network, not one coach. College advisor, Rick Singer, would facilitate what he called 'side door' donations. In some cases these were bribes to coaches, or admission staff. In other's they were donations to fund programs ie; the Stanford sailing coach was charged for accepting money that went to the Stanford sailing program, not to them personally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_bribery_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_briber...
  - krastanov 5y ago
    Sorry, I was thinking specifically about the Yale case. Still, all these cases are something that these institutions were vigorously against and unaware of. Bribing someone is not a donation (and is illegal).
    - rkk3 5y ago
      That is the universities marketing & legal defense. But in reality "getting creative" is encouraged to find funding for speciality programs that run at a loss, like sailing. The Universities will take money to "specially consider" an applicant, 500K is just not enough for Stanford or Harvard these days that price tag is in the tens of millions.

by rkk3 5y ago

Wowfunhappy 5y ago

> "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. This is still very different than the image painted by your GP, at least in my mind.

rkk3 5y ago
They have a particularly scathing take on the idea that higher education is a finishing school.
- krastanov 5y ago
  Could you elaborate? I do not really get what you mean.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. "A finishing school is a school for young women that focuses on teaching social graces and upper-class cultural rites as a preparation for entry into society" [1] "a philosophy of education that empowers individuals with broad knowledge and transferable skills, and a stronger sense of values, ethics, and civic engagement ... characterised by challenging encounters with important issues, and more a way of studying than a specific course or field of study" [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education
    - zumu 5y ago
      > They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families send their kids to schools with the children of other rich families. This tight coupling of social and economic class is the real issue and radically changing a few schools' admission policies isn't going to dismantle that.
      - rkk3 5y ago
        > Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Being trained for an elite social circle is the entire value proposition of a finishing school, not sure where you see a disagreement. > Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families send their kids to schools with the children of other rich families. These days it's less about meeting your spouse and more a gateway to future income and prestige opportunities; IB, MGMT Consulting, Big Tech or to Law School (Politics). Those tracks and opportunities will still be there and be attractive if more poor people were admitted.
        zumu 5y ago
        > These days it's less about meeting your spouse and more a gateway to future income and prestige opportunities; IB, MGMT Consulting, Big Tech or to Law School (Politics). Those tracks and opportunities will still be there and be attractive if more poor people were admitted. Unless there are specific reforms to talk about it's hard to argue further. However, clearly the "Ivy League Cartel" is colluding to limit enrollment of poorer people.
        SantalBlush 5y ago
        >Being trained for an elite social circle is the entire value proposition of a finishing school, not sure where you see a disagreement. Gaining access to elite social circles is not the same thing as being trained for those circles. There are plenty of institutions that enable elite networking that have nothing to do with finishing school, so it's a false equivalence.
zumu 5y ago
I must have misrepresented my opinion then. My thesis lies not in the absence of students from lower socioeconomic backgrounds but in the clustering of students from higher socioeconomic backgrounds and the value in exposure to such circles.

krastanov 5y ago

Varsity Blues scandal: where a coach was defrauding the university by being paid by parents to falsly recommend students. Then got fired and criminally charged when this was discovered. How is this an example of donating to the university in exchange for admission? Edit: more importantly though, your last paragraph is spot on. The rich (or simply upper middle class) paying for an exclusive better education, retaking expensive exams, and "fancy extracurriculars" during the K12 period is not a fair way to structure a society.

rkk3 5y ago
It was a whole network, not one coach. College advisor, Rick Singer, would facilitate what he called 'side door' donations. In some cases these were bribes to coaches, or admission staff. In other's they were donations to fund programs ie; the Stanford sailing coach was charged for accepting money that went to the Stanford sailing program, not to them personally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_bribery_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_briber...
- krastanov 5y ago
  Sorry, I was thinking specifically about the Yale case. Still, all these cases are something that these institutions were vigorously against and unaware of. Bribing someone is not a donation (and is illegal).
  - rkk3 5y ago
    That is the universities marketing & legal defense. But in reality "getting creative" is encouraged to find funding for speciality programs that run at a loss, like sailing. The Universities will take money to "specially consider" an applicant, 500K is just not enough for Stanford or Harvard these days that price tag is in the tens of millions.