8 ms·

Yup. I've had many conversations about this topic with my son (and on occasion some of his friends -- both male and female), since he was in middle school (a de

by twh270 5y ago

Yup. I've had many conversations about this topic with my son (and on occasion some of his friends -- both male and female), since he was in middle school (a decade ago). They're well aware of how men are portrayed versus women. We've transitioned from "A women's place is in the home (barefoot, pregnant, and cooking a delicious meal for her husband)" to "A woman's place is whatever she wants, and men are the reason for everything that's wrong with the world today". Whether it's world war or a bad relationship or choosing the right car. It's not a binary decision, people. We don't need to decide which gender/sex is "better" or "more right".

fb13 5y ago
It's the chicken egg problem. Woman birthed man. Who's to blame? In all seriousness, if we are to succeed as a society, then ignorantly maintaining what are mostly over generalizations and stereotypes related to gender is a failing proposition. And that involves anything that existed pre-the-whole-world-is-now-connected. That means > It's not a binary decision, people. We don't need to decide which gender/sex is "better" or "more right". But, for most of our parents it was binary and decision was obvious. People fantasize about going back to that. Even the young kids, Gen Z, which is most concerning. Something alarming is that this comes from a feeling of helplessness. That and similar feelings explains the increase in massacres, hatred, and even why terrorists traditionally came from countries in turmoil. The kids need to be feeling hopeful not helpless.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  That and similar feelings explains the increase in massacres, hatred, ... Violence has been falling substantially in the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about...
  - xyzzyz 5y ago
    The time series in your link end in 2019, when the trend of falling violence has ended. There has been a huge, unprecedented spike in violence in 2020, and this new normal has wiped decade or two of previous gains.
    - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
      Do you think that could be an outlier?
      - xyzzyz 5y ago
        No, because if you look at data, there has been clear inflection point around Memorial Day last year that shifted us to new regime of higher violence that seems to persist instead of subsiding.
        tonyedgecombe 5y ago
        Right at the height of Covid. I'm willing to bet it will be back where it was when this is all over.
zaptheimpaler 5y ago
Moving discourse to social media and click bait has destroyed so much nuance in all discussions. Everything is black and white now, every issue is just a war between 2 sides and you're either "with us or against us".
- graphtradr 5y ago
  Yes, this is group psychology. Only individuals can really be rational. Once individuals form a psychological group, individuality is lost, rationality is lost with it and everything is controlled by the emotions of the group. The group has no room for anything really but for the extreme emotional reactions of in-group/out-group psychology and you see this playing out in our society because of social media. There is literally no room for nuanced discourse between individuals with the way our social media platforms are structured. Individuals will not drive engagement the way groups do.
  - HDMI_Cable 5y ago
    I think its mostly groups on social media. Some groups can be rational, like a jury, or a committee full of intelligent people. But for them to be rational, there has to be the correct incentives and culture of discussion (i.e. no social media algorithms, or divisive politics).
    - belter 5y ago
      “Madness is something rare in individuals — but in groups, parties, peoples, and ages, it is the rule.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  Social media makes its money on outrage so that's what they're optimizing for. Ban or regulate advertising (which will make it less profitable) and other, less toxic business models will come up.
throoooway 5y ago
Dreading this when my sons grow up. “Hey, society and the media and politicians, institutions have all decided your nature is a problem and that you are assumed guilty, to be viewed with suspicion at all times. Oh and for some reason, you should still want to support this structure with your hard work and taxes, and shut up and never mention it.” Honestly - I don’t know why I would tell him he should accept this society, why he shouldn’t move to another country and why he should stick around. It isn’t showing any signs of changing. It sickens me, I don’t believe in my own country anymore.
- madaxe_again 5y ago
  Nobody is saying this crap other than you, my friend, and if you decide to tell your son he’s in a persecuted minority, that’s entirely on you.
- 5etho 5y ago
  look at this american loosing his 'usa usa usa' privilige. Oh no look, at the living in countries exploited by the united states which contain pretty much whole world. Bretton woods, us pertrodollar, war on iraq, etc you dont believe in your country? how sad
- twh270 5y ago
  Taking a victim stance isn't helpful. Whoever you are and whatever you do, there's always going to be some group that doesn't like you or "your kind". Running away doesn't teach your kids how to face this; it just changes where they'll face it.
  - macinjosh 5y ago
    You’re right. Our society is rewarding those who claim victimhood above those that overcome which is worrying.
  - Grazester 5y ago
    Leaving the country now potentially makes them the target of the anti-expats group.
developer93 5y ago
Well, decades ago, men did run the world, to all intents and purposes. They're still in most positions of power (politics ceos etc), most things are designed by men, etc. This doesn't mean that it's the fault of every single man, any more than as a Brit who benefits from a legacy of empire that I'm personally responsible for whatever massacres. You can be aware of it without taking the blame.
- afiori 5y ago
  An interesting part of this conversation is that there are strong subtexts that often have more weight than the actual words in driving how people actually answer. Scott Alexander as a nice rationaliization of this dynamic https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapons/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap...
  - developer93 5y ago
    Really useful link, thank you. It's useful to consider these things when having online discussions.
- madaxe_again 5y ago
  If you’re happy and willing to take the benefits of structural inequality and its legacies, by refusing to acknowledge that being a white British male is a profound privilege, then you absolutely are to blame. You would hand on heart say that women in the U.K. are 100% equal to men? I’m a white British male. Every time I do anything that takes advantage of my position, which is pretty much daily, I am to blame. By paying attention to your place in society, you can try, little by little, to work against the structural and cultural biases stacked in your favour.
  - noduerme 5y ago
    I'm not sure why you assumed the poster was male (I would guess otherwise). But it doesn't sound like they're refusing to acknowledge it. Also, what does acknowledging it do? You can't exactly stop being a white British male.
madaxe_again 5y ago
You say that, but bias is absolutely rife still. In commercial and entertainment media, it’s the woman in the kitchen, buying the groceries, raising the children, and holding down a 80 hour week job at her law firm. The man is playing ball in the yard, or is doing business in a suit. He definitely expects dinner to be on the table when he gets home from his 1950’s day job. Then there’s other people. Women get asked “when are you having a baby” and “why is your husband so thin don’t you feed him”, and men get “so what do you do?”. Women are now in the position where they are expected to do all of the things a woman would traditionally do, and hold down a career. The expectation of men has barely shifted - I know precious few guys who do all the cooking and cleaning and child rearing.
- rdtwo 5y ago
  And this is why we have declining population growth
- twh270 5y ago
  Today, today it's culturally acceptable to ridicule, scorn, and otherwise attack men and manhood; to portray men as arrogant, abusive, and controlling. The word 'masculine' is now a derogatory term that means the same thing as 'toxic'. "Men are trash". The message is that to be a man is to be lesser, or irrelevant, or harmful to society. That there's something shameful about being a man. "There's nothing wrong with taking men down a peg or two; after all, they rule pretty much everything". Yeah, now what about the overwhelmingly vast percentage of men who will never have a management position or hold office? Whose life is just mediocre? Is it also okay to tell him he's toxic trash? And sure, the proper response is "don't listen to the garbage". Doesn't mean it's okay to spew garbage. As for entertainment media, it's a shit-show on both sides -- women and men are both horribly stereotyped.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > The word 'masculine' is now a derogatory term that means the same thing as 'toxic'. This whole comment was BS, but I’ll focus on one example. This is the exact opposite of the truth, “toxic masculinity” is a common phrase because “toxic” is an adjective that is seen as *adding significant information to the description which is not already present in ‘masculinity’”. If masculinity were viewed as inherently toxic, “toxic masculinity” wouldn’t be a needed phrase.
xwolfi 5y ago
Yeah it's what I find wrong with the way we fix / correct social issues like this. I m a white male european who emigrated to an asian former colony, and while I never heard or supported racism, misogyny, colonisation, white supremacy, nazism and all these things, I'm often associated with them :D It's fair I guess so I apologize for what I represent to all these people who had oppressed ancestors, but I'm not sure they're actually resolving much of what people who looked like me did to them: poverty, lack of empowerement, inability to operate in a modern world etc, they can spend their time making me acknowledge my associated responsibility but I wish they'd just let me help instead :D I remember telling a "philipino" (culturally/parents born there) born in the country that I was an immigrant here, he could not even compute it. He felt HE was, while obviously he was born here and a full right citizen, while my associated identity made him believe I was a sort of powerful lord instead of the scraping by immigrant I am, who has mostly the right to shut up and be useful... in HIS country. It's just weird.

by twh270 5y ago

fb13 5y ago

It's the chicken egg problem. Woman birthed man. Who's to blame? In all seriousness, if we are to succeed as a society, then ignorantly maintaining what are mostly over generalizations and stereotypes related to gender is a failing proposition. And that involves anything that existed pre-the-whole-world-is-now-connected. That means > It's not a binary decision, people. We don't need to decide which gender/sex is "better" or "more right". But, for most of our parents it was binary and decision was obvious. People fantasize about going back to that. Even the young kids, Gen Z, which is most concerning. Something alarming is that this comes from a feeling of helplessness. That and similar feelings explains the increase in massacres, hatred, and even why terrorists traditionally came from countries in turmoil. The kids need to be feeling hopeful not helpless.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
That and similar feelings explains the increase in massacres, hatred, ... Violence has been falling substantially in the US: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about-crime-in-the-u-s/ https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/11/20/facts-about...
- xyzzyz 5y ago
  The time series in your link end in 2019, when the trend of falling violence has ended. There has been a huge, unprecedented spike in violence in 2020, and this new normal has wiped decade or two of previous gains.
  - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
    Do you think that could be an outlier?
    - xyzzyz 5y ago
      No, because if you look at data, there has been clear inflection point around Memorial Day last year that shifted us to new regime of higher violence that seems to persist instead of subsiding.
      - tonyedgecombe 5y ago
        Right at the height of Covid. I'm willing to bet it will be back where it was when this is all over.

zaptheimpaler 5y ago

Moving discourse to social media and click bait has destroyed so much nuance in all discussions. Everything is black and white now, every issue is just a war between 2 sides and you're either "with us or against us".

graphtradr 5y ago
Yes, this is group psychology. Only individuals can really be rational. Once individuals form a psychological group, individuality is lost, rationality is lost with it and everything is controlled by the emotions of the group. The group has no room for anything really but for the extreme emotional reactions of in-group/out-group psychology and you see this playing out in our society because of social media. There is literally no room for nuanced discourse between individuals with the way our social media platforms are structured. Individuals will not drive engagement the way groups do.
- HDMI_Cable 5y ago
  I think its mostly groups on social media. Some groups can be rational, like a jury, or a committee full of intelligent people. But for them to be rational, there has to be the correct incentives and culture of discussion (i.e. no social media algorithms, or divisive politics).
  - belter 5y ago
    “Madness is something rare in individuals — but in groups, parties, peoples, and ages, it is the rule.” ― Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
Nextgrid 5y ago
Social media makes its money on outrage so that's what they're optimizing for. Ban or regulate advertising (which will make it less profitable) and other, less toxic business models will come up.

throoooway 5y ago

Dreading this when my sons grow up. “Hey, society and the media and politicians, institutions have all decided your nature is a problem and that you are assumed guilty, to be viewed with suspicion at all times. Oh and for some reason, you should still want to support this structure with your hard work and taxes, and shut up and never mention it.” Honestly - I don’t know why I would tell him he should accept this society, why he shouldn’t move to another country and why he should stick around. It isn’t showing any signs of changing. It sickens me, I don’t believe in my own country anymore.

madaxe_again 5y ago
Nobody is saying this crap other than you, my friend, and if you decide to tell your son he’s in a persecuted minority, that’s entirely on you.
5etho 5y ago
look at this american loosing his 'usa usa usa' privilige. Oh no look, at the living in countries exploited by the united states which contain pretty much whole world. Bretton woods, us pertrodollar, war on iraq, etc you dont believe in your country? how sad
twh270 5y ago
Taking a victim stance isn't helpful. Whoever you are and whatever you do, there's always going to be some group that doesn't like you or "your kind". Running away doesn't teach your kids how to face this; it just changes where they'll face it.
- macinjosh 5y ago
  You’re right. Our society is rewarding those who claim victimhood above those that overcome which is worrying.
- Grazester 5y ago
  Leaving the country now potentially makes them the target of the anti-expats group.

developer93 5y ago

Well, decades ago, men did run the world, to all intents and purposes. They're still in most positions of power (politics ceos etc), most things are designed by men, etc. This doesn't mean that it's the fault of every single man, any more than as a Brit who benefits from a legacy of empire that I'm personally responsible for whatever massacres. You can be aware of it without taking the blame.

afiori 5y ago
An interesting part of this conversation is that there are strong subtexts that often have more weight than the actual words in driving how people actually answer. Scott Alexander as a nice rationaliization of this dynamic https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapons/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap...
- developer93 5y ago
  Really useful link, thank you. It's useful to consider these things when having online discussions.
madaxe_again 5y ago
If you’re happy and willing to take the benefits of structural inequality and its legacies, by refusing to acknowledge that being a white British male is a profound privilege, then you absolutely are to blame. You would hand on heart say that women in the U.K. are 100% equal to men? I’m a white British male. Every time I do anything that takes advantage of my position, which is pretty much daily, I am to blame. By paying attention to your place in society, you can try, little by little, to work against the structural and cultural biases stacked in your favour.
- noduerme 5y ago
  I'm not sure why you assumed the poster was male (I would guess otherwise). But it doesn't sound like they're refusing to acknowledge it. Also, what does acknowledging it do? You can't exactly stop being a white British male.

madaxe_again 5y ago

You say that, but bias is absolutely rife still. In commercial and entertainment media, it’s the woman in the kitchen, buying the groceries, raising the children, and holding down a 80 hour week job at her law firm. The man is playing ball in the yard, or is doing business in a suit. He definitely expects dinner to be on the table when he gets home from his 1950’s day job. Then there’s other people. Women get asked “when are you having a baby” and “why is your husband so thin don’t you feed him”, and men get “so what do you do?”. Women are now in the position where they are expected to do all of the things a woman would traditionally do, and hold down a career. The expectation of men has barely shifted - I know precious few guys who do all the cooking and cleaning and child rearing.

rdtwo 5y ago
And this is why we have declining population growth
twh270 5y ago
Today, today it's culturally acceptable to ridicule, scorn, and otherwise attack men and manhood; to portray men as arrogant, abusive, and controlling. The word 'masculine' is now a derogatory term that means the same thing as 'toxic'. "Men are trash". The message is that to be a man is to be lesser, or irrelevant, or harmful to society. That there's something shameful about being a man. "There's nothing wrong with taking men down a peg or two; after all, they rule pretty much everything". Yeah, now what about the overwhelmingly vast percentage of men who will never have a management position or hold office? Whose life is just mediocre? Is it also okay to tell him he's toxic trash? And sure, the proper response is "don't listen to the garbage". Doesn't mean it's okay to spew garbage. As for entertainment media, it's a shit-show on both sides -- women and men are both horribly stereotyped.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > The word 'masculine' is now a derogatory term that means the same thing as 'toxic'. This whole comment was BS, but I’ll focus on one example. This is the exact opposite of the truth, “toxic masculinity” is a common phrase because “toxic” is an adjective that is seen as *adding significant information to the description which is not already present in ‘masculinity’”. If masculinity were viewed as inherently toxic, “toxic masculinity” wouldn’t be a needed phrase.

xwolfi 5y ago

Yeah it's what I find wrong with the way we fix / correct social issues like this. I m a white male european who emigrated to an asian former colony, and while I never heard or supported racism, misogyny, colonisation, white supremacy, nazism and all these things, I'm often associated with them :D It's fair I guess so I apologize for what I represent to all these people who had oppressed ancestors, but I'm not sure they're actually resolving much of what people who looked like me did to them: poverty, lack of empowerement, inability to operate in a modern world etc, they can spend their time making me acknowledge my associated responsibility but I wish they'd just let me help instead :D I remember telling a "philipino" (culturally/parents born there) born in the country that I was an immigrant here, he could not even compute it. He felt HE was, while obviously he was born here and a full right citizen, while my associated identity made him believe I was a sort of powerful lord instead of the scraping by immigrant I am, who has mostly the right to shut up and be useful... in HIS country. It's just weird.