4 ms·

I have studied and taught (as a graduate TA) at some of these institutions so maybe I am not objective, but some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially

I have studied and taught (as a graduate TA) at some of these institutions so maybe I am not objective, but some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. The rest are upper middle class and few are actually from rich families. The higher steps of the economic ladder are overrepresented simply because having money implies better K12 education in the US, which makes it easier to get into these schools. (Some more elitist policies like legacy admissions are slowly getting removed and "donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever) And while the extracurriculars available are quite great, it is not a "daycare" and the rigors of education are very high.

rkk3 5y ago
> but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. > donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever Did you miss the Varsity Blues scandal? Official donations are uncommon and more reserved for the Ultra High Net worth, but they are a thing, Jared Kushner was the literal poster-child for it. The most prevalent and whitewashed pay to play path is getting your child do an expensive specialty sport (Lacrosse, Fencing, Crew, Equestrian) & hiring college advisors & SAT prep. 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/it-costs-75925-to-go-to-yaleheres-how-much-students-actually-pay.html#:~:text=According%20to%20The%20New%20York,earning%2020%25%20of%20American%20households https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/it-costs-75925-to-go-to-yale....
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  > "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. This is still very different than the image painted by your GP, at least in my mind.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    They have a particularly scathing take on the idea that higher education is a finishing school.
    - krastanov 5y ago
      Could you elaborate? I do not really get what you mean.
      - rkk3 5y ago
        They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. "A finishing school is a school for young women that focuses on teaching social graces and upper-class cultural rites as a preparation for entry into society" [1] "a philosophy of education that empowers individuals with broad knowledge and transferable skills, and a stronger sense of values, ethics, and civic engagement ... characterised by challenging encounters with important issues, and more a way of studying than a specific course or field of study" [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education
        zumu 5y ago
        > They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families send their kids to schools with the children of other rich families. This tight coupling of social and economic class is the real issue and radically changing a few schools' admission policies isn't going to dismantle that.
        rkk3 5y ago
- krastanov 5y ago
  Varsity Blues scandal: where a coach was defrauding the university by being paid by parents to falsly recommend students. Then got fired and criminally charged when this was discovered. How is this an example of donating to the university in exchange for admission? Edit: more importantly though, your last paragraph is spot on. The rich (or simply upper middle class) paying for an exclusive better education, retaking expensive exams, and "fancy extracurriculars" during the K12 period is not a fair way to structure a society.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    It was a whole network, not one coach. College advisor, Rick Singer, would facilitate what he called 'side door' donations. In some cases these were bribes to coaches, or admission staff. In other's they were donations to fund programs ie; the Stanford sailing coach was charged for accepting money that went to the Stanford sailing program, not to them personally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_bribery_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_briber...
    - krastanov 5y ago
      Sorry, I was thinking specifically about the Yale case. Still, all these cases are something that these institutions were vigorously against and unaware of. Bribing someone is not a donation (and is illegal).
      - rkk3 5y ago
        That is the universities marketing & legal defense. But in reality "getting creative" is encouraged to find funding for speciality programs that run at a loss, like sailing. The Universities will take money to "specially consider" an applicant, 500K is just not enough for Stanford or Harvard these days that price tag is in the tens of millions.
LudwigNagasena 5y ago
Quantitative concentrations in Harvard are probably the ones that are the least affected by legacy admissions and “holistic” reviews. I guess you are more likely to see such applicants in sociology, WGS, VES and other concentrations stereotypically seen as easy. I doubt people who get a ride based on their athletic achievements in spite of their low GPA flock to CS and physics.
- briefcomment 5y ago
  Student athletes at these schools are generally smart. No reason to think there aren't enough athletic smart people to fill up a relatively small number of spots.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    Not as smart as average.
zumu 5y ago
> some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. I don't find the existence of students from middle class or lower backgrounds to be contrary to any of my premises. My point is more around the network effects. The children of the elite do attend these schools. The children of the elite are by definition already elite. Exposure to these social circles, even through something like the alumni network is a massive value proposition and massively increases ones chances of becoming an elite. If the children of the elite were to go elsewhere, the social network and value goes along with them. This is not to say Ivy Leagues don't have other merits as undergraduate institutions, such as great staff and academics. > The higher steps of the economic ladder are overrepresented simply because having money implies better K12 education in the US, which makes it easier to get into these schools. It's not just K12 education, it's extracurriculars, it's SAT prep, it's high schools paying recruiters to visit campus, etc. It's a virtuous cycle. But again there are also network effects to consider. Rich and powerful families want to send their children schools with children from their socioeconomic class, so they cluster. > And while the extracurriculars available are quite great, it is not a "daycare" and the rigors of education are very high. My point on undergrad being akin to "daycare" is not unique to Ivy Leagues. In my experience in the US, there is a certain type of student that doesn't work a job, lives in a supervised environment (dorm), doesn't pay their own bills, doesn't cook for themselves, studies occasionally and who's main focus is fraternizing with their peers. This lifestyle is what I am comparing to daycare, and I don't believe this is uncommon esp. in places that cater to those of higher socioeconomic class.
colinmhayes 5y ago
Fraternizing with the rich is the real value add that ivies provide. The education is nice, but it's absolutely not what makes those schools the best. The brightest poor people attend in order to gain access to said rich and powerful young adults.

rkk3 5y ago

> but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. > donations to get in" has not been a thing in recent history if ever Did you miss the Varsity Blues scandal? Official donations are uncommon and more reserved for the Ultra High Net worth, but they are a thing, Jared Kushner was the literal poster-child for it. The most prevalent and whitewashed pay to play path is getting your child do an expensive specialty sport (Lacrosse, Fencing, Crew, Equestrian) & hiring college advisors & SAT prep. 1. https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/it-costs-75925-to-go-to-yaleheres-how-much-students-actually-pay.html#:~:text=According%20to%20The%20New%20York,earning%2020%25%20of%20American%20households https://www.cnbc.com/2019/04/18/it-costs-75925-to-go-to-yale....

Wowfunhappy 5y ago
> "69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% American Families" [1]. So the bottom 80% makes up 30% of Yale. Thats quite the under representation. This is still very different than the image painted by your GP, at least in my mind.
- rkk3 5y ago
  They have a particularly scathing take on the idea that higher education is a finishing school.
  - krastanov 5y ago
    Could you elaborate? I do not really get what you mean.
    - rkk3 5y ago
      They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. "A finishing school is a school for young women that focuses on teaching social graces and upper-class cultural rites as a preparation for entry into society" [1] "a philosophy of education that empowers individuals with broad knowledge and transferable skills, and a stronger sense of values, ethics, and civic engagement ... characterised by challenging encounters with important issues, and more a way of studying than a specific course or field of study" [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finishing_school [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_education
      - zumu 5y ago
        > They are arguing that elite institution's goal is to prepare entry into polite society not to provide a liberal education. Not quite what I'm getting at. My point is more that the value proposition of the undergraduate programs of Ivy Leagues is partly the elite social circle you buy into. Secondly, some of these ideas of "fixing" Ivy League admissions would just send those circles elsewhere, because rich families send their kids to schools with the children of other rich families. This tight coupling of social and economic class is the real issue and radically changing a few schools' admission policies isn't going to dismantle that.
        rkk3 5y ago
krastanov 5y ago
Varsity Blues scandal: where a coach was defrauding the university by being paid by parents to falsly recommend students. Then got fired and criminally charged when this was discovered. How is this an example of donating to the university in exchange for admission? Edit: more importantly though, your last paragraph is spot on. The rich (or simply upper middle class) paying for an exclusive better education, retaking expensive exams, and "fancy extracurriculars" during the K12 period is not a fair way to structure a society.
- rkk3 5y ago
  It was a whole network, not one coach. College advisor, Rick Singer, would facilitate what he called 'side door' donations. In some cases these were bribes to coaches, or admission staff. In other's they were donations to fund programs ie; the Stanford sailing coach was charged for accepting money that went to the Stanford sailing program, not to them personally. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_bribery_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_college_admissions_briber...
  - krastanov 5y ago
    Sorry, I was thinking specifically about the Yale case. Still, all these cases are something that these institutions were vigorously against and unaware of. Bribing someone is not a donation (and is illegal).
    - rkk3 5y ago
      That is the universities marketing & legal defense. But in reality "getting creative" is encouraged to find funding for speciality programs that run at a loss, like sailing. The Universities will take money to "specially consider" an applicant, 500K is just not enough for Stanford or Harvard these days that price tag is in the tens of millions.

LudwigNagasena 5y ago

Quantitative concentrations in Harvard are probably the ones that are the least affected by legacy admissions and “holistic” reviews. I guess you are more likely to see such applicants in sociology, WGS, VES and other concentrations stereotypically seen as easy. I doubt people who get a ride based on their athletic achievements in spite of their low GPA flock to CS and physics.

briefcomment 5y ago
Student athletes at these schools are generally smart. No reason to think there aren't enough athletic smart people to fill up a relatively small number of spots.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Not as smart as average.

zumu 5y ago

> some of your premises are flatout wrong. Especially when it comes to money: it is not the majority, but a substantial portion of undergrads in these institutions are from lower middle class or lower (economically) backgrounds. I don't find the existence of students from middle class or lower backgrounds to be contrary to any of my premises. My point is more around the network effects. The children of the elite do attend these schools. The children of the elite are by definition already elite. Exposure to these social circles, even through something like the alumni network is a massive value proposition and massively increases ones chances of becoming an elite. If the children of the elite were to go elsewhere, the social network and value goes along with them. This is not to say Ivy Leagues don't have other merits as undergraduate institutions, such as great staff and academics. > The higher steps of the economic ladder are overrepresented simply because having money implies better K12 education in the US, which makes it easier to get into these schools. It's not just K12 education, it's extracurriculars, it's SAT prep, it's high schools paying recruiters to visit campus, etc. It's a virtuous cycle. But again there are also network effects to consider. Rich and powerful families want to send their children schools with children from their socioeconomic class, so they cluster. > And while the extracurriculars available are quite great, it is not a "daycare" and the rigors of education are very high. My point on undergrad being akin to "daycare" is not unique to Ivy Leagues. In my experience in the US, there is a certain type of student that doesn't work a job, lives in a supervised environment (dorm), doesn't pay their own bills, doesn't cook for themselves, studies occasionally and who's main focus is fraternizing with their peers. This lifestyle is what I am comparing to daycare, and I don't believe this is uncommon esp. in places that cater to those of higher socioeconomic class.

colinmhayes 5y ago

Fraternizing with the rich is the real value add that ivies provide. The education is nice, but it's absolutely not what makes those schools the best. The brightest poor people attend in order to gain access to said rich and powerful young adults.