7 ms·

>The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. Men are socially adept in their society and a society of their peers. Just not in this one w

>The fact that men don't tend to be a socially adept doesn't help. Men are socially adept in their society and a society of their peers. Just not in this one which seeks to break them down and punishes them for not being women.

ziziyO 5y ago
When all you’ve known is privilege, equality can feel like oppression.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  Forgive me, but then it is not the kind of equality we should strive for. I want everyone on better, higher footing, not the highly footed to be brought down.
  - developer93 5y ago
    The point of this comment was not that men should be bought down, but that being asked to consider someone else feels like an imposition when you're not accustomed to doing that.
  - CiceroCiceronis 5y ago
    I’m reminded of a joke, which I’m often reminded of when I think about this (excellent) point. Two revolutionaries, one young and bright-eyed and the other old and grizzled, are sitting together. The older asks the younger what he fights for, to which the latter responds “For there to be no more rich people!” The older one sighs and says “How times have changed! Back in my day, we fought for there to be no more poor people.”
  - ziziyO 5y ago
    Are you saying that all lives matter?
    - t-writescode 5y ago
      No. But I am saying that a black person should be able to get as good a legal counsel as a while person, among innumerable other things.
- username90 5y ago
  Todays boys have only known privilege until today that they are suddenly equal? How does that work?
  - developer93 5y ago
    We are not suddenly all equal, but it's becoming more so, and that seems to be a problem. Eventually hopefully anyone will be able to do whatever they like in life without expectations put on them because of things they have no control over. I think there is a communication issue where "mostly men" has been shortened to "men" which is read as "all men"
- throwaway9980 5y ago
  This sounds like the kind of equality that communism created in the 20th century. The sort where all but a few are miserable and impoverished. Of course, that’s most of human history. Until very recently life was nasty, brutish, and short. We seem to be trying our best to revert to that condition.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  In my country, there are 50% more women in colleges than men, and our colleges still work more to attract more women (with eg. girls-only workshops, etc... we used to call this segregation and/or sexism back in my time). Lets say you have Alice and Bob... they both finished college, both are looking for a job, and they both decide to start their own company - Alice will make plastic spoons, and Bob will make plastic forks. Alice can get 5k eur from our government, because she's a woman. Men also tend to work more (hours and years), and live less (less years of retirement), but in many countries still get lower pensions than women for the same money paid in the pension fund. In my country this has been equalized now (same payments, same amount of money, only for new retirees), but relatively shorter lives are not accounted for anywhere. Safe houses for men? Lets say Alice and Bob meet at a party, get drunk, have sex and a condom pops... we give Alice numerous ways to get rid of the unwanted baby, and Bob just has to hope, she won't want a kid at the moment, so he'll be able to avoid 18-26 years of child support. Paper abortion ideas are laughed at and oposed by "he shouldn't have sex if he doesn't want to take care of the baby"... but the same argument can be used for a normal/real abortion (except in case of rape). Media treats women more preferably then men, pointing out the greater tragedy in case of women deaths, and even in cases of paedophillia use "nicer words" for women - eg "schoolteacher had sex with 13yo boy" instead of calling it statuatory rape. In other countries (eg. usa) there are many more cases of casual sexism against men, even some that are illegal in many other countries, eg. women-only scholarships.
  - anm89 5y ago
    Curious which country this is. That ratio sounds really high.
    - thablackbull 5y ago
      It would appear to be Serbia. His username is supposedly a reference to celebrity, "Vladan Aksentijević, better known by his stage name Ajs Nigrutin, is a Serbian rapper and actor." From the Statistical Office of the Republic of Serbia[1], a quick glance at the Higher Education statistics would seem to indicate there are 32% more women. [1] https://www.stat.gov.rs/en-us/oblasti/obrazovanje/visoko-obrazovanje/ https://www.stat.gov.rs/en-us/oblasti/obrazovanje/visoko-obr...
- nickthemagicman 5y ago
  That's why science and statistics come in handy. FEELings are irrelevant in the search for truth.
- doubleunplussed 5y ago
  You are probably directing this at men, but I've also heard this directed at women who were surprised to find out that working unpleasant jobs full time is actually not the greener grass they thought it was. Or women picking a physical fight only to be shocked at a man fighting back. Or women being surprised at being sentenced to jail when they expected a slap on the wrist. The list goes on.
  - developer93 5y ago
    As a woman, that's a good thing. Equality is equality the bad and the good. But I feel like many people of all genders have a hard time adapting.
    - TheAdamAndChe 5y ago
      But why is equality of outcomes necessary? We see worldwide physical and psychological differences between the sexes, and the reproductive strategies typically used are different. Why shouldn't that reflect in broadly different social norms and roles?
      - LunaSea 5y ago
        Should we also reflect this in wages for sports and physical jobs?
      - developer93 5y ago
        Where did I say equality of outcomes? This is just about holding people to the same standards. Equality of opportunity would be nice, but the majority of women (worldwide) don't have that either.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jdgoesmarching 5y ago
There’s a lot of validity to the social struggles of men in a lot of online discourse, but to say “society“ punishes us for not being women flies in the face of almost every useful metric of socioeconomic success. Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically. Buying into that victim complex is a distraction from your own self-development and healing.
- username90 5y ago
  Most kids spends their first 15 years mostly surrounded by women. Their doctors, their kinder garden teachers, their school teachers etc. Almost every authority figure is a woman there. If those boys have problem I feel it is ok to say that it is mostly those grownups fault, and they happen to be mostly women.
  - acdha 5y ago
    This is a weirdly sexist take: to give yourself license to blame women, you’re erasing all of the men in those kids’ lives. For example, most of them have fathers and uncles, and while there’s a gender skew teaching in younger grades it’s not absolute and you’re leaving out the skew in the other direction for administrators and older grades - and if you’re talking authority figures you should be talking about principals and deans, not to mention cops.
    - username90 5y ago
      Kids spends their whole days getting bossed around by teachers. Kids usually doesn't even know who the dean or administrators are, those aren't authority figures to kids. And I choose 15 years as the cut-off since that is roughly when you start seeing male teachers.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - hunter-gatherer 5y ago
strken 5y ago
This is a bit too reductive. Men have a wider and flatter curve of outcomes than women. The ones who are doing really well are winning the Fields Medal and becoming C-suite executives; the ones who are struggling drop out of higher education, move back in with their parents, or get sent to jail. A lot of the gender wars happen because what's true for Jeff Bezos is not true for the guy who spraypainted "Let Them Eat Fent[anyl]" around Civic Centre in SF, and the same traits that are rewarded in directed male CEOs are punished in directionless male fast food workers.
- wwweston 5y ago
  This is one of the most interesting insights into gender divides, and years ago I think I recall seeing a link here on HN to an essay by someone who tied this insight into dynamics down to a cellular (ie sperm have a wider and flatter curve than eggs) and genetic level (men seem to have a higher incidence of both genetic defects and beneficial mutations). I can't seem to find it again (much less speak to its accuracy). Does anyone have an idea what this might be?
  - olalonde 5y ago
    Edit: I believe you are referring to "Is There Anything Good About Men?": http://www.denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm http://www.denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm. It was discussed multiple times on HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=Is+There+Anything+Good+About+Men%3F https://hn.algolia.com/?q=Is+There+Anything+Good+About+Men%3...
    - wwweston 5y ago
      That's got to be it! Thanks.
smoldesu 5y ago
> Men are socially adept in their society and a society of their peers. This is the same mentality that lead to the oppression of women.
dang 5y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27480158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27480158.

ziziyO 5y ago

When all you’ve known is privilege, equality can feel like oppression.

t-writescode 5y ago
Forgive me, but then it is not the kind of equality we should strive for. I want everyone on better, higher footing, not the highly footed to be brought down.
- developer93 5y ago
  The point of this comment was not that men should be bought down, but that being asked to consider someone else feels like an imposition when you're not accustomed to doing that.
- CiceroCiceronis 5y ago
  I’m reminded of a joke, which I’m often reminded of when I think about this (excellent) point. Two revolutionaries, one young and bright-eyed and the other old and grizzled, are sitting together. The older asks the younger what he fights for, to which the latter responds “For there to be no more rich people!” The older one sighs and says “How times have changed! Back in my day, we fought for there to be no more poor people.”
- ziziyO 5y ago
  Are you saying that all lives matter?
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    No. But I am saying that a black person should be able to get as good a legal counsel as a while person, among innumerable other things.
username90 5y ago
Todays boys have only known privilege until today that they are suddenly equal? How does that work?
- developer93 5y ago
  We are not suddenly all equal, but it's becoming more so, and that seems to be a problem. Eventually hopefully anyone will be able to do whatever they like in life without expectations put on them because of things they have no control over. I think there is a communication issue where "mostly men" has been shortened to "men" which is read as "all men"
throwaway9980 5y ago
This sounds like the kind of equality that communism created in the 20th century. The sort where all but a few are miserable and impoverished. Of course, that’s most of human history. Until very recently life was nasty, brutish, and short. We seem to be trying our best to revert to that condition.
ajsnigrutin 5y ago
In my country, there are 50% more women in colleges than men, and our colleges still work more to attract more women (with eg. girls-only workshops, etc... we used to call this segregation and/or sexism back in my time). Lets say you have Alice and Bob... they both finished college, both are looking for a job, and they both decide to start their own company - Alice will make plastic spoons, and Bob will make plastic forks. Alice can get 5k eur from our government, because she's a woman. Men also tend to work more (hours and years), and live less (less years of retirement), but in many countries still get lower pensions than women for the same money paid in the pension fund. In my country this has been equalized now (same payments, same amount of money, only for new retirees), but relatively shorter lives are not accounted for anywhere. Safe houses for men? Lets say Alice and Bob meet at a party, get drunk, have sex and a condom pops... we give Alice numerous ways to get rid of the unwanted baby, and Bob just has to hope, she won't want a kid at the moment, so he'll be able to avoid 18-26 years of child support. Paper abortion ideas are laughed at and oposed by "he shouldn't have sex if he doesn't want to take care of the baby"... but the same argument can be used for a normal/real abortion (except in case of rape). Media treats women more preferably then men, pointing out the greater tragedy in case of women deaths, and even in cases of paedophillia use "nicer words" for women - eg "schoolteacher had sex with 13yo boy" instead of calling it statuatory rape. In other countries (eg. usa) there are many more cases of casual sexism against men, even some that are illegal in many other countries, eg. women-only scholarships.
- anm89 5y ago
  Curious which country this is. That ratio sounds really high.
  - thablackbull 5y ago
    It would appear to be Serbia. His username is supposedly a reference to celebrity, "Vladan Aksentijević, better known by his stage name Ajs Nigrutin, is a Serbian rapper and actor." From the Statistical Office of the Republic of Serbia[1], a quick glance at the Higher Education statistics would seem to indicate there are 32% more women. [1] https://www.stat.gov.rs/en-us/oblasti/obrazovanje/visoko-obrazovanje/ https://www.stat.gov.rs/en-us/oblasti/obrazovanje/visoko-obr...
nickthemagicman 5y ago
That's why science and statistics come in handy. FEELings are irrelevant in the search for truth.
doubleunplussed 5y ago
You are probably directing this at men, but I've also heard this directed at women who were surprised to find out that working unpleasant jobs full time is actually not the greener grass they thought it was. Or women picking a physical fight only to be shocked at a man fighting back. Or women being surprised at being sentenced to jail when they expected a slap on the wrist. The list goes on.
- developer93 5y ago
  As a woman, that's a good thing. Equality is equality the bad and the good. But I feel like many people of all genders have a hard time adapting.
  - TheAdamAndChe 5y ago
    But why is equality of outcomes necessary? We see worldwide physical and psychological differences between the sexes, and the reproductive strategies typically used are different. Why shouldn't that reflect in broadly different social norms and roles?
    - LunaSea 5y ago
      Should we also reflect this in wages for sports and physical jobs?
    - developer93 5y ago
      Where did I say equality of outcomes? This is just about holding people to the same standards. Equality of opportunity would be nice, but the majority of women (worldwide) don't have that either.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jdgoesmarching 5y ago

There’s a lot of validity to the social struggles of men in a lot of online discourse, but to say “society“ punishes us for not being women flies in the face of almost every useful metric of socioeconomic success. Women did not create the society that is hurting men emotionally and economically. Buying into that victim complex is a distraction from your own self-development and healing.

username90 5y ago
Most kids spends their first 15 years mostly surrounded by women. Their doctors, their kinder garden teachers, their school teachers etc. Almost every authority figure is a woman there. If those boys have problem I feel it is ok to say that it is mostly those grownups fault, and they happen to be mostly women.
- acdha 5y ago
  This is a weirdly sexist take: to give yourself license to blame women, you’re erasing all of the men in those kids’ lives. For example, most of them have fathers and uncles, and while there’s a gender skew teaching in younger grades it’s not absolute and you’re leaving out the skew in the other direction for administrators and older grades - and if you’re talking authority figures you should be talking about principals and deans, not to mention cops.
  - username90 5y ago
    Kids spends their whole days getting bossed around by teachers. Kids usually doesn't even know who the dean or administrators are, those aren't authority figures to kids. And I choose 15 years as the cut-off since that is roughly when you start seeing male teachers.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - hunter-gatherer 5y ago

strken 5y ago

This is a bit too reductive. Men have a wider and flatter curve of outcomes than women. The ones who are doing really well are winning the Fields Medal and becoming C-suite executives; the ones who are struggling drop out of higher education, move back in with their parents, or get sent to jail. A lot of the gender wars happen because what's true for Jeff Bezos is not true for the guy who spraypainted "Let Them Eat Fent[anyl]" around Civic Centre in SF, and the same traits that are rewarded in directed male CEOs are punished in directionless male fast food workers.

wwweston 5y ago
This is one of the most interesting insights into gender divides, and years ago I think I recall seeing a link here on HN to an essay by someone who tied this insight into dynamics down to a cellular (ie sperm have a wider and flatter curve than eggs) and genetic level (men seem to have a higher incidence of both genetic defects and beneficial mutations). I can't seem to find it again (much less speak to its accuracy). Does anyone have an idea what this might be?
- olalonde 5y ago
  Edit: I believe you are referring to "Is There Anything Good About Men?": http://www.denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm http://www.denisdutton.com/baumeister.htm. It was discussed multiple times on HN: https://hn.algolia.com/?q=Is+There+Anything+Good+About+Men%3F https://hn.algolia.com/?q=Is+There+Anything+Good+About+Men%3...
  - wwweston 5y ago
    That's got to be it! Thanks.

smoldesu 5y ago

> Men are socially adept in their society and a society of their peers. This is the same mentality that lead to the oppression of women.

dang 5y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27480158 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27480158.