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Why are European companies so unambitious? My whole civilian career I've had to work for North American companies because the European alternatives aren't even

Why are European companies so unambitious? My whole civilian career I've had to work for North American companies because the European alternatives aren't even attempting to be competitive.

passerby1 5y ago
I'm not an economist, but in my opinion a progressive taxation (for employees wages) can be a main limiting factor to this. Ambitions needs motivated employees. They need better wages to work harder. But it's really a steep curve after mid-wage, because taxes are _very_ progressive. So ambitions are just not worth trying.
- duped 5y ago
  California has some of the most progressive taxes in the US and yet is truly unrivaled in ambition and innovation in business. The taxes don't seem to be harming the ability of companies to pay competitively or citizens to be ambitious. The taxes aren't stopping European companies from paying competitive salaries
- robocat 5y ago
  I don't buy that argument. As I increase my earnings, more and more is disposable income (beyond the costs of living for my social status). Extra dollars go towards things you want, not the things you need, so there is quite an incentive to earn more even if it is highly taxed. As you raise your income,
  - emptysongglass 5y ago
    Anecdata from myself here but I've recently hit top tax in Denmark. I'm ambitious but have started to feel like it's just not worth it scrabbling for an extra 2 or 3k a month when most of it disappears down the end of a hoover. I don't even know how millionaires who can afford their incredible estates in the countryside do it. My first thought was tax havens but I don't know if that's true. It seems like the entire system is set up to disembowel such ambitions.
    - jusssi 5y ago
      Capitalism 101: you won't get there with your own work. You get there by installing yourself in a position where you take a cut out of work of others, then scale it up.
nxc18 5y ago
I have wondered this. I work at an American company with many European employees and it is just really hard to see a complete lack of ambition/competitiveness. At some point being on vacation so much must hurt, I know projects are delayed when folks just can’t be expected to be there and will randomly disappear for 4+ weeks at a time. But that really doesn’t explain the extreme cultural conservatism towards effort/ambition more generally. I feel like a Martian speaking an alien language when I try to get coworkers onboard with the idea of creating a competitive product or trying to be innovative at all. They just don’t want to do more than the bare minimum to compete. The concept of taking pride in the work and wanting to create something great is totally foreign. It seems like work is just a way to earn money for Europeans, which I sort of get, but I thought humans were supposed to be intrinsically motivated by pursuit of mastery/excellence? I get that baguettes and wine and croissants and endless Mediterranean vacations are more enjoyable than work but ffs someone needs to put effort towards advancing society.
- everyone 5y ago
  Your crud app is 'advancing society'? Really?
  - chrisseaton 5y ago
    US companies are far more ambitious than that. I see large corporates in the US genuinely trying to solve real-world problems like car electrification, self-driving, space-exploration, etc.
    - _Microft 5y ago
      > I see large corporates run by Elon Musk genuinely trying to solve real-world problems like car electrification, self-driving, space-exploration, etc. Fixed that for you. ;)
      - iso1210 5y ago
        Quite. Musk is so unusual and venerated by many because he's different to the normal US billionaires who seem to want to squeeze the world and get new yachts. Bezos is doing blue original as a money sinking hobby. Ellison buys yachts and squeezes legacy companies (do new companies really choose to lock themselves into oracle?). Zuckerberg tries to control the worlds communication.
pm90 5y ago
European companies are ambitious. Many European multinational firms have a broad presence in most developing countries.
vonsydov 5y ago
Ambition and competition go together unfortunately.
sbacic 5y ago
Because the rewards just aren't there. Amazon is a company started by some guy in a garage and less than 30 years later it is one of the richest companies in the world. Something like that just isn't going to happen in Europe - you'd be crushed by high taxes and regulation long before you reached that level. Some Europeans will say that's actually a feature, not a bug. But look at what businesses are being started instead - neighborhood pubs and apartments for rent to tourists. Low-growth, low risk businesses with quick returns. What kind of jobs are these businesses going to create?
- iso1210 5y ago
  How do "high taxes" crush a company? Do companies say "Right, I'm not going to make an extra billion this year because I'll be taxed at the EU average 20.7% tax rather than the US 21%"
  - sbacic 5y ago
    > Do companies say "Right, I'm not going to make an extra billion this year because I'll be taxed at the EU average 20.7% tax rather than the US 21%" No, but their owners might go: "Given the risk, the potential returns and the taxes that I'd need to pay on said returns I'm better off putting this money into real estate, finding a cushy low-stress job and enjoying life instead."
    - iso1210 5y ago
      Why would the higher corporate taxes in the US encourage that? Cushy low strsss jobs and enjoying life are more likely in Europe thanks to social safety nets, which is great - means that 80% of the continent gets to have a nice life, rather than 1% hitting is big and 99% in wage slavery.

Why are European companies so unambitious? My whole civilian career I've had to work for North American companies because the European alternatives aren't even attempting to be competitive.

passerby1 5y ago

I'm not an economist, but in my opinion a progressive taxation (for employees wages) can be a main limiting factor to this. Ambitions needs motivated employees. They need better wages to work harder. But it's really a steep curve after mid-wage, because taxes are _very_ progressive. So ambitions are just not worth trying.

duped 5y ago
California has some of the most progressive taxes in the US and yet is truly unrivaled in ambition and innovation in business. The taxes don't seem to be harming the ability of companies to pay competitively or citizens to be ambitious. The taxes aren't stopping European companies from paying competitive salaries
robocat 5y ago
I don't buy that argument. As I increase my earnings, more and more is disposable income (beyond the costs of living for my social status). Extra dollars go towards things you want, not the things you need, so there is quite an incentive to earn more even if it is highly taxed. As you raise your income,
- emptysongglass 5y ago
  Anecdata from myself here but I've recently hit top tax in Denmark. I'm ambitious but have started to feel like it's just not worth it scrabbling for an extra 2 or 3k a month when most of it disappears down the end of a hoover. I don't even know how millionaires who can afford their incredible estates in the countryside do it. My first thought was tax havens but I don't know if that's true. It seems like the entire system is set up to disembowel such ambitions.
  - jusssi 5y ago
    Capitalism 101: you won't get there with your own work. You get there by installing yourself in a position where you take a cut out of work of others, then scale it up.

nxc18 5y ago

I have wondered this. I work at an American company with many European employees and it is just really hard to see a complete lack of ambition/competitiveness. At some point being on vacation so much must hurt, I know projects are delayed when folks just can’t be expected to be there and will randomly disappear for 4+ weeks at a time. But that really doesn’t explain the extreme cultural conservatism towards effort/ambition more generally. I feel like a Martian speaking an alien language when I try to get coworkers onboard with the idea of creating a competitive product or trying to be innovative at all. They just don’t want to do more than the bare minimum to compete. The concept of taking pride in the work and wanting to create something great is totally foreign. It seems like work is just a way to earn money for Europeans, which I sort of get, but I thought humans were supposed to be intrinsically motivated by pursuit of mastery/excellence? I get that baguettes and wine and croissants and endless Mediterranean vacations are more enjoyable than work but ffs someone needs to put effort towards advancing society.

everyone 5y ago
Your crud app is 'advancing society'? Really?
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  US companies are far more ambitious than that. I see large corporates in the US genuinely trying to solve real-world problems like car electrification, self-driving, space-exploration, etc.
  - _Microft 5y ago
    > I see large corporates run by Elon Musk genuinely trying to solve real-world problems like car electrification, self-driving, space-exploration, etc. Fixed that for you. ;)
    - iso1210 5y ago
      Quite. Musk is so unusual and venerated by many because he's different to the normal US billionaires who seem to want to squeeze the world and get new yachts. Bezos is doing blue original as a money sinking hobby. Ellison buys yachts and squeezes legacy companies (do new companies really choose to lock themselves into oracle?). Zuckerberg tries to control the worlds communication.

pm90 5y ago

European companies are ambitious. Many European multinational firms have a broad presence in most developing countries.

vonsydov 5y ago

Ambition and competition go together unfortunately.

sbacic 5y ago

Because the rewards just aren't there. Amazon is a company started by some guy in a garage and less than 30 years later it is one of the richest companies in the world. Something like that just isn't going to happen in Europe - you'd be crushed by high taxes and regulation long before you reached that level. Some Europeans will say that's actually a feature, not a bug. But look at what businesses are being started instead - neighborhood pubs and apartments for rent to tourists. Low-growth, low risk businesses with quick returns. What kind of jobs are these businesses going to create?

iso1210 5y ago
How do "high taxes" crush a company? Do companies say "Right, I'm not going to make an extra billion this year because I'll be taxed at the EU average 20.7% tax rather than the US 21%"
- sbacic 5y ago
  > Do companies say "Right, I'm not going to make an extra billion this year because I'll be taxed at the EU average 20.7% tax rather than the US 21%" No, but their owners might go: "Given the risk, the potential returns and the taxes that I'd need to pay on said returns I'm better off putting this money into real estate, finding a cushy low-stress job and enjoying life instead."
  - iso1210 5y ago
    Why would the higher corporate taxes in the US encourage that? Cushy low strsss jobs and enjoying life are more likely in Europe thanks to social safety nets, which is great - means that 80% of the continent gets to have a nice life, rather than 1% hitting is big and 99% in wage slavery.