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I completely reject everything that you are saying. A grown man (or woman) who is dependent on their parents at that level has very serious problems because the

I completely reject everything that you are saying. A grown man (or woman) who is dependent on their parents at that level has very serious problems because they are the equivalents of obese domestic dogs in a world full of wolves. Left to their own devices, they would have nothing. A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist. They take it for granted that others will support them even though they contribute nothing and they don't understand that there could be any reason to work hard other than their own immediate pleasure. Ironically, these people often complain that the reason for their situation is because others aren't doing enough to help them. In their minds, it's not really their fault that they are failures and they go to great lengths to convince other people of these lies.

username90 5y ago
> A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist Nah, lots of people just tend to follow the path of least resistance at the moment. They don't assume that others will support them forever, they just aren't thinking about it since it is bothersome. If they were forced to do other things then they will do other things, since the force changed what path has the least resistance.
- JoeyBananas 5y ago
  I agree with you, it might not necessarily be narcissism that causes someone to always do the bare minimum in life. What it really comes down to is lack of discipline.
  - sillysaurusx 5y ago
    I've mostly done the bare minimum in life, at things that I didn't want to do. I agree I'm undisciplined. It took a long time to find my own path, and something to strive for. I think your labels are part of the problem. They're not narcissists. They're people. And you look down on them just for being people. If you want to help them, perhaps treat them as equals and listen to them rather than thinking of ways to change them. I wish I knew their gamer tags so that I could play a few rounds of halo with them, or whatever they like to play. They seem chill.
  - jcims 5y ago
    I know a kid that is a bit at risk of this. The issue i see isn’t lack of discipline as much as it is lack of passion or motivation for anything. If you explore their desire for the future it is a complete blank. Nothing is interesting to them, the future just seems dark and grim, they are resolute about not having children and it feels like, to them, the world is committing slow-motion suicide and there’s no sense in getting emotionally invested in any particular outcome.
  - smolder 5y ago
    What it often (of course not always) comes down to is that they have experienced some trauma or unfairness that ruins their trust in the delayed reward systems that the survivor contingent happily takes advantage of. It's a much greater emotional load to maintain discipline when you experience setbacks that are out of your control, even partly. If 100 people break the law and 10 get the book thrown at them and 90 get away free, those 10 made a bad choice but they also were unlucky. The bad luck part will tend to weaken the cognitive biases that help people stay motivated, i.e. the just world fallacy, and move their locus of control outward. Risks become less appealing. Satiating immediate wants and needs over investing in long term ones may seem rational. How do you address this issue? I think it's cheaper and better for everyone to address unfairness than to try to fix people after they come to feel abused by the world. It would also be better than the status quo of Social Darwinism with a sprinkle of charity and busted social programs. Dear downvoter, I'd be interested in reading why I deserved it.
    - fb13 5y ago
      > How do you address this issue? I think it's cheaper and better for everyone to address unfairness than to try to fix people after they come to feel abused by the world. Yes, but somehow forward thinking isn't a common phenomenon in our society. > Dear downvoter, I'd be interested in reading why I deserved it. Undoubtedly you didn't "deserve" it. The voting system is just a way for the prevailing cliques to signify who's present. This thread is ripe with the hateful and helpless young men referred to in the article, evident by many of the comments. The worse part is that growing trend in this direction on HN. I'd say HN is currently experiencing max Q and I'm not sure it will make it to the other side without succumbing to the pressure(ie decent people leaving the site for good). The experience here is worse than before, but still better than elsewhere. I think that means HN is ripe for innovation!
      - kharak 5y ago
        What is "Q"? You seem to refer to a model that I haven't heard about and I'm curious about it. (And not sure how to Google this one).
  - monkeybutton 5y ago
    Could also be depression and learned helplessness. Playing video games all day is just a coping mechanism or distraction from the first two problems.
hellbannedguy 5y ago
Hello Dad!
stemlord 5y ago
>A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist. I spent a mere year after college living with my parents, a very long and sad year, wondering if this was going to be the rest of my life. My next real job came somewhat out of sheer luck and I'm thankful for it because I could totally see myself having given up, still back there to this day, still having no idea how to take my first step in a direction that actually motivated me beyond the baseline survival mode of wage-slavery. Not for one second during that time did I want to live like that, but it could have very well been the case anyway. Narcissism is far from the truth
- JoeyBananas 5y ago
  I am talking about people who are orders of magnitude less motivated than you and do nothing to improve their situation. These people probably never went to college or dropped out just to stay home and play video games. In your case, working a low paying job as a college graduate is actually highly virtuous. Some college grads would rather do nothing because they think they are hot shit.
  - riversflow 5y ago
    >working a low paying job as a college graduate is actually highly virtuous. I disagree. In principle I don't think anyone should work a low paying job, and I think opting out if you can afford it is the right thing to do. Why should we have a race to the bottom on labor? I'd rather we have more blogs and interesting reading on the internet than cheap Starbucks thanks to full employment and high labor-force participation. Work for the sake of being busy is silly, I believe industriousness like you profess is unsustainable for our planet, at least in our current social order.
  - stemlord 5y ago
    I mean, how much of motivation comes from one's environment/upbringing... I have a strong sense that the vast majority of them thought they just didnt have opportunities to begin with, leading later to the deduction that "the game is rigged" and were destined to wage-slavery anyway. Thus no reason to motivate themselves to contribute
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
"they don't understand that there could be any reason to work hard" The cultural pedestal of "working hard" is tragically misplaced. Market promotes those that work smart or gable at the right opportunity, corporate politics promotes the well connected, people that support their family or community the most deserve respect, but the poor folks stocking amazon warehouses 12 hours a day get screwed. "In their minds, it's not really their fault that they are failures and they go to great lengths to convince other people of these lies." sometimes it is really not their fault, but one day their parents will not be able to provide for them, and that's when the real tragedy will begin.
random314 5y ago
How do you know they are failures, if they are happy with their situation.
- grammarnazzzi 5y ago
  Not leading a meaningful life inevitably leads to depression. That's not to say that a very small few people may somehow find meaning exclusively playing video games. However most people will eventually suffer from lack of self-esteam, low status and shame.
  - hellbannedguy 5y ago
    Exactly what is a meaningful life anymore, especially in America? If you are looking for self-esteem through your job--for most of us those days are gone. (I know way to many former Programers who aged out of the industry way to early, and gave up. Way to many are homeless. My point is don't expect too much psychological satisfaction from a job that barely covers the rent, has no real pension, and lousy medical. My father lived for work. He loved being an electrician. He didn't develop friendships, or hobbies. He died of liver cancer a few months into retirement. One of our last conversations was when he was dying. He got a letter from the union stating they will now cover his medical expenses 100%.)
    - grammarnazzzi 5y ago
      > Exactly what is a meaningful life anymore, especially in America? That's a personal and existental question. What are your principles? What would you like people to say about you at your funeral?
      - random314 5y ago
        These are my principles. I want to be honest and fair to others. I don't care what people say about me at my funeral. Perfectly ok with an anonymous death.
  - random314 5y ago
burade 5y ago
Leaving home at 18 is really mostly an american thing. Go to a place like Italy or India or Pakistan and you'll find 30+ year olds living with their parents and it's no big deal at all.
- g8oz 5y ago
  At least in South Asia they are also at that point working and in many cases supporting their parents.
- chakkepolja 5y ago
  30+ year olds are working. In rural areas working in farms with their parents. In urban areas employed in some other job. It's true that we are supported until we finish education, however. Which I think is a good thing.
grammarnazzzi 5y ago
> A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist. This is not narcissism. This is sloth. Narcissim is a active behavior/disorder that seeks out positive and negative attention through manipulation.
paulpauper 5y ago
I am taking more of a positive approach and describing why this is happening the rationale/motivation, not necessarily endorsing it.
throwaway6734 5y ago
Agree, especially those who were lucky enough to be born in first world countries
Noos 5y ago
Not everyone can do "something." A lot of jobs aren't meaningful or even necessary, and given the increased tendency to require 4 year degrees on top of internships, connections, and more for many jobs makes it harder to obtain them. Also, a lot of jobs that would employee these men are disappearing. Retail in particular is the employer of last resort, but physical shops are slowly dwindling in numbers. People are a lot more aware of how bad the military is to be in, too; there is much less glamour around it culturally.

username90 5y ago

> A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist Nah, lots of people just tend to follow the path of least resistance at the moment. They don't assume that others will support them forever, they just aren't thinking about it since it is bothersome. If they were forced to do other things then they will do other things, since the force changed what path has the least resistance.

JoeyBananas 5y ago
I agree with you, it might not necessarily be narcissism that causes someone to always do the bare minimum in life. What it really comes down to is lack of discipline.
- sillysaurusx 5y ago
  I've mostly done the bare minimum in life, at things that I didn't want to do. I agree I'm undisciplined. It took a long time to find my own path, and something to strive for. I think your labels are part of the problem. They're not narcissists. They're people. And you look down on them just for being people. If you want to help them, perhaps treat them as equals and listen to them rather than thinking of ways to change them. I wish I knew their gamer tags so that I could play a few rounds of halo with them, or whatever they like to play. They seem chill.
- jcims 5y ago
  I know a kid that is a bit at risk of this. The issue i see isn’t lack of discipline as much as it is lack of passion or motivation for anything. If you explore their desire for the future it is a complete blank. Nothing is interesting to them, the future just seems dark and grim, they are resolute about not having children and it feels like, to them, the world is committing slow-motion suicide and there’s no sense in getting emotionally invested in any particular outcome.
- smolder 5y ago
  What it often (of course not always) comes down to is that they have experienced some trauma or unfairness that ruins their trust in the delayed reward systems that the survivor contingent happily takes advantage of. It's a much greater emotional load to maintain discipline when you experience setbacks that are out of your control, even partly. If 100 people break the law and 10 get the book thrown at them and 90 get away free, those 10 made a bad choice but they also were unlucky. The bad luck part will tend to weaken the cognitive biases that help people stay motivated, i.e. the just world fallacy, and move their locus of control outward. Risks become less appealing. Satiating immediate wants and needs over investing in long term ones may seem rational. How do you address this issue? I think it's cheaper and better for everyone to address unfairness than to try to fix people after they come to feel abused by the world. It would also be better than the status quo of Social Darwinism with a sprinkle of charity and busted social programs. Dear downvoter, I'd be interested in reading why I deserved it.
  - fb13 5y ago
    > How do you address this issue? I think it's cheaper and better for everyone to address unfairness than to try to fix people after they come to feel abused by the world. Yes, but somehow forward thinking isn't a common phenomenon in our society. > Dear downvoter, I'd be interested in reading why I deserved it. Undoubtedly you didn't "deserve" it. The voting system is just a way for the prevailing cliques to signify who's present. This thread is ripe with the hateful and helpless young men referred to in the article, evident by many of the comments. The worse part is that growing trend in this direction on HN. I'd say HN is currently experiencing max Q and I'm not sure it will make it to the other side without succumbing to the pressure(ie decent people leaving the site for good). The experience here is worse than before, but still better than elsewhere. I think that means HN is ripe for innovation!
    - kharak 5y ago
      What is "Q"? You seem to refer to a model that I haven't heard about and I'm curious about it. (And not sure how to Google this one).
- monkeybutton 5y ago
  Could also be depression and learned helplessness. Playing video games all day is just a coping mechanism or distraction from the first two problems.

hellbannedguy 5y ago

Hello Dad!

stemlord 5y ago

>A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist. I spent a mere year after college living with my parents, a very long and sad year, wondering if this was going to be the rest of my life. My next real job came somewhat out of sheer luck and I'm thankful for it because I could totally see myself having given up, still back there to this day, still having no idea how to take my first step in a direction that actually motivated me beyond the baseline survival mode of wage-slavery. Not for one second during that time did I want to live like that, but it could have very well been the case anyway. Narcissism is far from the truth

JoeyBananas 5y ago
I am talking about people who are orders of magnitude less motivated than you and do nothing to improve their situation. These people probably never went to college or dropped out just to stay home and play video games. In your case, working a low paying job as a college graduate is actually highly virtuous. Some college grads would rather do nothing because they think they are hot shit.
- riversflow 5y ago
  >working a low paying job as a college graduate is actually highly virtuous. I disagree. In principle I don't think anyone should work a low paying job, and I think opting out if you can afford it is the right thing to do. Why should we have a race to the bottom on labor? I'd rather we have more blogs and interesting reading on the internet than cheap Starbucks thanks to full employment and high labor-force participation. Work for the sake of being busy is silly, I believe industriousness like you profess is unsustainable for our planet, at least in our current social order.
- stemlord 5y ago
  I mean, how much of motivation comes from one's environment/upbringing... I have a strong sense that the vast majority of them thought they just didnt have opportunities to begin with, leading later to the deduction that "the game is rigged" and were destined to wage-slavery anyway. Thus no reason to motivate themselves to contribute

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

"they don't understand that there could be any reason to work hard" The cultural pedestal of "working hard" is tragically misplaced. Market promotes those that work smart or gable at the right opportunity, corporate politics promotes the well connected, people that support their family or community the most deserve respect, but the poor folks stocking amazon warehouses 12 hours a day get screwed. "In their minds, it's not really their fault that they are failures and they go to great lengths to convince other people of these lies." sometimes it is really not their fault, but one day their parents will not be able to provide for them, and that's when the real tragedy will begin.

random314 5y ago

How do you know they are failures, if they are happy with their situation.

grammarnazzzi 5y ago
Not leading a meaningful life inevitably leads to depression. That's not to say that a very small few people may somehow find meaning exclusively playing video games. However most people will eventually suffer from lack of self-esteam, low status and shame.
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  Exactly what is a meaningful life anymore, especially in America? If you are looking for self-esteem through your job--for most of us those days are gone. (I know way to many former Programers who aged out of the industry way to early, and gave up. Way to many are homeless. My point is don't expect too much psychological satisfaction from a job that barely covers the rent, has no real pension, and lousy medical. My father lived for work. He loved being an electrician. He didn't develop friendships, or hobbies. He died of liver cancer a few months into retirement. One of our last conversations was when he was dying. He got a letter from the union stating they will now cover his medical expenses 100%.)
  - grammarnazzzi 5y ago
    > Exactly what is a meaningful life anymore, especially in America? That's a personal and existental question. What are your principles? What would you like people to say about you at your funeral?
    - random314 5y ago
      These are my principles. I want to be honest and fair to others. I don't care what people say about me at my funeral. Perfectly ok with an anonymous death.
- random314 5y ago

burade 5y ago

Leaving home at 18 is really mostly an american thing. Go to a place like Italy or India or Pakistan and you'll find 30+ year olds living with their parents and it's no big deal at all.

g8oz 5y ago
At least in South Asia they are also at that point working and in many cases supporting their parents.
chakkepolja 5y ago
30+ year olds are working. In rural areas working in farms with their parents. In urban areas employed in some other job. It's true that we are supported until we finish education, however. Which I think is a good thing.

grammarnazzzi 5y ago

> A person who does nothing with their life when they could be doing something is really a narcissist. This is not narcissism. This is sloth. Narcissim is a active behavior/disorder that seeks out positive and negative attention through manipulation.

paulpauper 5y ago

I am taking more of a positive approach and describing why this is happening the rationale/motivation, not necessarily endorsing it.

throwaway6734 5y ago

Agree, especially those who were lucky enough to be born in first world countries

Noos 5y ago

Not everyone can do "something." A lot of jobs aren't meaningful or even necessary, and given the increased tendency to require 4 year degrees on top of internships, connections, and more for many jobs makes it harder to obtain them. Also, a lot of jobs that would employee these men are disappearing. Retail in particular is the employer of last resort, but physical shops are slowly dwindling in numbers. People are a lot more aware of how bad the military is to be in, too; there is much less glamour around it culturally.