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> And the elite universities have acted on it, and many of their new classes are very different. No less elitist though. The idea of a selective college is eli

> And the elite universities have acted on it, and many of their new classes are very different. No less elitist though. The idea of a selective college is elitist. The more selective, the more elitist. All the progressive talk is cant.

wolverine876 5y ago
>> And the elite universities have acted on it, and many of their new classes are very different. > No less elitist though. The idea of a selective college is elitist. What does that mean? By that definition, everything selective is 'elitist', including my high school wrestling team. By non-elitist, we generally mean it's not biased in favor of the people who are already in society's elite. Some top colleges now admit much more economically and ethnically diverse students. I've seen the applications, and they've reduced processes that select for children of the elite (such as standardized tests). In other words, they aren't admitting the children of elite (or not as much) - I think that is meaningful. (I wish I could provide some citations, but I don't have time or anything at my fingertips.) > All the progressive talk is cant. Am I responding to nothing more than mindless anti-progressivism?
- rejectedandsad 5y ago
  I mean, yeah that is elitist especially because the point of college is education not to compete together as a team. I went to CC in high school and a non selective engineering school. I’ve seen non-elitist and non-elite institutions.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    > that is elitist especially because the point of college is education not to compete together as a team I don't understand how the latter implies the former ?
    - rejectedandsad 5y ago
      Colleges should aim to educate not compete with each other. The team analogy doesn’t work.
      - wolverine876 5y ago
        While I agree, I don't see being selective as necessarily being about a team competition. They have 100 applications for each spot; they have to select them. FWIW: I recently saw the applications to several American elite colleges. All asked, one way or the other, 'how will our institution in particular help you in particular?', and 'how will you in particular contribute to our institution in particular?'. They seemed focused on the finding students who would benefit most and contribute most, not on a contest to see who gets the best credential.
- barry-cotter 5y ago
  > Some top colleges now admit much more economically and ethnically diverse students. Yes, there are lots more black and Hispanic students than before, and since the universities refuse to share the data we can’t be sure that this increase in diversity mostly means more children of Nigerian doctors and Colombian lawyers, mostly paying full international student fees but that’s the way to bet. Regarding economic diversity. Harvard[1], Yale[2], Princeton[3] Stanford[4] all have average family incomes above $160,000. Less selective colleges with smaller endowments that need the money from fees more are not going to be more economically diverse if they can possibly avoid it. Selecting by standardized test scores would result in a substantially less socially elite student body than the current system. A more Asian one. Stopping that is why there’s a movement to get rid of the SATs. Asians are being discriminated against now as Jews were in the early 20th century, for similar reasons. [1] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Harvard is $168,800, and 67% of students come from the highest-earning 20% of American households. About 15% come from families in the top 1% of American wealth distribution. [2] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Yale is $192,600. Roughly 69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% of American households. [3] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Princeton is $186,100, and 72% come from the highest-earning 20% of American households [4] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Stanford is $167,500
  - unishark 5y ago
    > Less selective colleges with smaller endowments that need the money from fees more are not going to be more economically diverse if they can possibly avoid it. Why does it matter? They are less selective so anyone has a better chance of getting in.
  - extra88 5y ago
    > Selecting by standardized test scores would result in a substantially less socially elite student body than the current system. A more Asian one. Stopping that is why there’s a movement to get rid of the SATs. Except the most elite schools are the ones that are clinging to keeping standardized tests in their admissions processes, they only dropped it for the incoming class because of the pandemic.

wolverine876 5y ago

>> And the elite universities have acted on it, and many of their new classes are very different. > No less elitist though. The idea of a selective college is elitist. What does that mean? By that definition, everything selective is 'elitist', including my high school wrestling team. By non-elitist, we generally mean it's not biased in favor of the people who are already in society's elite. Some top colleges now admit much more economically and ethnically diverse students. I've seen the applications, and they've reduced processes that select for children of the elite (such as standardized tests). In other words, they aren't admitting the children of elite (or not as much) - I think that is meaningful. (I wish I could provide some citations, but I don't have time or anything at my fingertips.) > All the progressive talk is cant. Am I responding to nothing more than mindless anti-progressivism?

rejectedandsad 5y ago
I mean, yeah that is elitist especially because the point of college is education not to compete together as a team. I went to CC in high school and a non selective engineering school. I’ve seen non-elitist and non-elite institutions.
- wolverine876 5y ago
  > that is elitist especially because the point of college is education not to compete together as a team I don't understand how the latter implies the former ?
  - rejectedandsad 5y ago
    Colleges should aim to educate not compete with each other. The team analogy doesn’t work.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      While I agree, I don't see being selective as necessarily being about a team competition. They have 100 applications for each spot; they have to select them. FWIW: I recently saw the applications to several American elite colleges. All asked, one way or the other, 'how will our institution in particular help you in particular?', and 'how will you in particular contribute to our institution in particular?'. They seemed focused on the finding students who would benefit most and contribute most, not on a contest to see who gets the best credential.
barry-cotter 5y ago
> Some top colleges now admit much more economically and ethnically diverse students. Yes, there are lots more black and Hispanic students than before, and since the universities refuse to share the data we can’t be sure that this increase in diversity mostly means more children of Nigerian doctors and Colombian lawyers, mostly paying full international student fees but that’s the way to bet. Regarding economic diversity. Harvard[1], Yale[2], Princeton[3] Stanford[4] all have average family incomes above $160,000. Less selective colleges with smaller endowments that need the money from fees more are not going to be more economically diverse if they can possibly avoid it. Selecting by standardized test scores would result in a substantially less socially elite student body than the current system. A more Asian one. Stopping that is why there’s a movement to get rid of the SATs. Asians are being discriminated against now as Jews were in the early 20th century, for similar reasons. [1] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Harvard is $168,800, and 67% of students come from the highest-earning 20% of American households. About 15% come from families in the top 1% of American wealth distribution. [2] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Yale is $192,600. Roughly 69% of Yale students come from the highest-earning 20% of American households. [3] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Princeton is $186,100, and 72% come from the highest-earning 20% of American households [4] According to The New York Times, the median family income of a student from Stanford is $167,500
- unishark 5y ago
  > Less selective colleges with smaller endowments that need the money from fees more are not going to be more economically diverse if they can possibly avoid it. Why does it matter? They are less selective so anyone has a better chance of getting in.
- extra88 5y ago
  > Selecting by standardized test scores would result in a substantially less socially elite student body than the current system. A more Asian one. Stopping that is why there’s a movement to get rid of the SATs. Except the most elite schools are the ones that are clinging to keeping standardized tests in their admissions processes, they only dropped it for the incoming class because of the pandemic.