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An underrated comment this. For those who don't know, the Varna system, also known as the caste system has long been justified as the 'natural order' of a scho

An underrated comment this. For those who don't know, the Varna system, also known as the caste system has long been justified as the 'natural order' of a scholar's child being a scholar, a warrior's child being a warrior, a tradesmen child being a tradesman and the lowest class of a menial worker's child being a menial worker. The fact that so many are willing color the discussion with - observable trends seem to suggest this is a natural fact of life is only elementary is both disgusting and unsurprising.

mc32 5y ago
I think that’s a bit facile. When you look at other traditional cultures, or unmodernized cultures offspring still likely follow their parents’ footsteps, but that doesn’t mean those are caste systems. People are permitted to pursue alternatives and aren’t forbidden.
- devnonymous 5y ago
  > People are permitted to pursue alternatives and aren’t forbidden. Systematic barriers are seldom built consciously, yet they exist and without conscious effort to break down continue to be perpetuated. From the point of view of opportunities/privileges available to an individual, is there really a difference between the caste system and a class system?
  - sokoloff 5y ago
    I think there is a difference. As I understand the caste system, it’s inherited durably. If I’m X, not only will I always be X, but my kids and grandkids will also be X, so there’s no point in trying to become “not X”. Not so for socioeconomic class. My grandfathers milled steel and mined coal. They made sure their kids became the first generation in the family to attend college. My parents became teachers and made sure their kids focused on education and we all attended “good colleges” and have built careers. My generation is saving for college while the kids are still in diapers. That’s still systemic advantages from the family, but it’s marked change in economic class in just two generations, which is IMO dramatically different from the Indian caste system. It still matters who your parents are, but in a significantly different (and I think more fair) way.
    - devnonymous 5y ago
      > It still matters who your parents are, but in a significantly different (and I think more fair) way. It amazes me when people think the current socioeconomic structures are fair. You do realise that most people here, including perhaps you are, economically speaking, closer to being poor than being part of the 1% rich, right? The economic gap between those you might consider poor and yourself is a rounding error magnitude of the gap between yourself and the super rich. This is not an accident. God forbid, but you and your kids are perhaps one or two medical, legal or natural calamities away from that few generations of advancement you talk about.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        More fair =/= perfectly fair. I don’t care that someone has well over 5 orders of magnitude more wealth than I have. It doesn’t materially negatively affect my life in the least and, on the contrary, their inventions make my daily life better by wildly more than any negative impacts their houses, yachts, airplanes, or rockets could possibly have. I’m here to spend my life energy and time pursuing the things that are important to me: raising and loving my family, doing work and hobbies I find stimulating, traveling and learning about the world. Bellyaching that I’m not a literal or figurative monarch is not among the ways I choose to spend my time and energy.
        devnonymous 5y ago
        All of what you said is fine but the 'more fair' part has come about in a large part due to people recognising inequity and fighting to remove it. Just because it no longer affects you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That the whole damn point of the original article. Anyways cheers yeah mate, current socioeconomic structures are fair. /s
        mlyle 5y ago
        This pretty badly breaks the site guidelines and willfully strawmans what the other person is saying to you.
mlyle 5y ago
I think there's a difference between cramming someone into a caste in perpetuity and ... them having a childhood where they're exposed to job skills and study habits that somewhat favor a certain career because that's what their parent does. My kids saw a whole lot more of "how technology works" and mathematics during elementary school than most kids. A lawyer's kid probably heard a lot more of argument, rhetoric, and legal reasoning than mine did. They still could do something completely different-- the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome.
- devnonymous 5y ago
  > the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome. And what would be the likelyhood of the child of a single mom working 2 unskilled jobs to be either of those? Like I mentioned in a different comment, Systematic barriers exist without being consciously built and are then perpetuated as just the natural way of things.
  - plank_time 5y ago
    Someone I know is an illegal immigrant from Central America. She cleans houses for a living. Her husband is also illegal immigrant and he paints houses. Her daughter is going to one of the top private schools in SF, on a full scholarship. She dreams of Yale, and I would bet that she gets it easily. If you are dedicated to education, there is plenty of opportunity to succeed. It’s sad that some bloodlines don’t make it out of poverty easily, but that’s just how the world works. For those that make the effort, it’s very available.
    - meheleventyone 5y ago
      That’s not actually “just how the world works” that’s “how people have chosen to organise society”. Other places work differently with different outcomes.
      - 5y ago
kingsuper20 5y ago
It appears to be strong enough that it is expressed in genetics.

mc32 5y ago

I think that’s a bit facile. When you look at other traditional cultures, or unmodernized cultures offspring still likely follow their parents’ footsteps, but that doesn’t mean those are caste systems. People are permitted to pursue alternatives and aren’t forbidden.

devnonymous 5y ago
> People are permitted to pursue alternatives and aren’t forbidden. Systematic barriers are seldom built consciously, yet they exist and without conscious effort to break down continue to be perpetuated. From the point of view of opportunities/privileges available to an individual, is there really a difference between the caste system and a class system?
- sokoloff 5y ago
  I think there is a difference. As I understand the caste system, it’s inherited durably. If I’m X, not only will I always be X, but my kids and grandkids will also be X, so there’s no point in trying to become “not X”. Not so for socioeconomic class. My grandfathers milled steel and mined coal. They made sure their kids became the first generation in the family to attend college. My parents became teachers and made sure their kids focused on education and we all attended “good colleges” and have built careers. My generation is saving for college while the kids are still in diapers. That’s still systemic advantages from the family, but it’s marked change in economic class in just two generations, which is IMO dramatically different from the Indian caste system. It still matters who your parents are, but in a significantly different (and I think more fair) way.
  - devnonymous 5y ago
    > It still matters who your parents are, but in a significantly different (and I think more fair) way. It amazes me when people think the current socioeconomic structures are fair. You do realise that most people here, including perhaps you are, economically speaking, closer to being poor than being part of the 1% rich, right? The economic gap between those you might consider poor and yourself is a rounding error magnitude of the gap between yourself and the super rich. This is not an accident. God forbid, but you and your kids are perhaps one or two medical, legal or natural calamities away from that few generations of advancement you talk about.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      More fair =/= perfectly fair. I don’t care that someone has well over 5 orders of magnitude more wealth than I have. It doesn’t materially negatively affect my life in the least and, on the contrary, their inventions make my daily life better by wildly more than any negative impacts their houses, yachts, airplanes, or rockets could possibly have. I’m here to spend my life energy and time pursuing the things that are important to me: raising and loving my family, doing work and hobbies I find stimulating, traveling and learning about the world. Bellyaching that I’m not a literal or figurative monarch is not among the ways I choose to spend my time and energy.
      - devnonymous 5y ago
        All of what you said is fine but the 'more fair' part has come about in a large part due to people recognising inequity and fighting to remove it. Just because it no longer affects you doesn't mean it doesn't exist. That the whole damn point of the original article. Anyways cheers yeah mate, current socioeconomic structures are fair. /s
        mlyle 5y ago
        This pretty badly breaks the site guidelines and willfully strawmans what the other person is saying to you.

mlyle 5y ago

I think there's a difference between cramming someone into a caste in perpetuity and ... them having a childhood where they're exposed to job skills and study habits that somewhat favor a certain career because that's what their parent does. My kids saw a whole lot more of "how technology works" and mathematics during elementary school than most kids. A lawyer's kid probably heard a lot more of argument, rhetoric, and legal reasoning than mine did. They still could do something completely different-- the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome.

devnonymous 5y ago
> the lawyer's kid could go do technology and my kid could grow up to be a lawyer-- it's just a somewhat less likely outcome. And what would be the likelyhood of the child of a single mom working 2 unskilled jobs to be either of those? Like I mentioned in a different comment, Systematic barriers exist without being consciously built and are then perpetuated as just the natural way of things.
- plank_time 5y ago
  Someone I know is an illegal immigrant from Central America. She cleans houses for a living. Her husband is also illegal immigrant and he paints houses. Her daughter is going to one of the top private schools in SF, on a full scholarship. She dreams of Yale, and I would bet that she gets it easily. If you are dedicated to education, there is plenty of opportunity to succeed. It’s sad that some bloodlines don’t make it out of poverty easily, but that’s just how the world works. For those that make the effort, it’s very available.
  - meheleventyone 5y ago
    That’s not actually “just how the world works” that’s “how people have chosen to organise society”. Other places work differently with different outcomes.
    - 5y ago

kingsuper20 5y ago

It appears to be strong enough that it is expressed in genetics.