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IMHO, everyone will be better off if Facebook, Google, and Amazon are shattered into small enough independent pieces that (1) "get bought" is no longer the star

IMHO, everyone will be better off if Facebook, Google, and Amazon are shattered into small enough independent pieces that (1) "get bought" is no longer the startup win condition & (2) they have peer level competitors in all markets in which they participate. I’m sure Chinese Tech co’s would absolutely love to have their Western competition knee-capped by their own governments. Will make it a lot easier for them to dominate the globe for decades to come.

InvertedRhodium 5y ago
Their services will just be banned and access made difficult enough to dissuade the average person. By that point I'm sure China will have perfected the technology enough that we can just copy them.
- bawana 5y ago
  If we decimate domestic economic engines, then the internationals will figure out ways to push us into ever deeper economic dependency and subservience. We need the REAL hackers to paralyze monopolies.
not_exactly__ 5y ago
I think it’s a somewhat false dichotomy that splitting up US big tech makes China big tech win. The reason being that splitting up US big tech allow for more competitive US mid tech to arise that can outcompete China big tech in areas where it matters. I suppose you also want to prevent China Big Tech to throw its money around at Mid Tech the way US big tech did in the last 10-15 years.
- andreilys 5y ago
  Why wouldn't an international tech co just be able to acquire domestic companies and/or launch products at a significant loss to gain market share in the US? For example, break up Amazon and you now create an opening for Alibaba to expand into the US. Spending billions in order to get customers to shift to Alibaba instead of Amazon.
  - not_exactly__ 5y ago
    Well that was the gist of my last sentence regarding not letting external Big Tech behave like current Big Tech. ps: fwiw, I’m against breaking up BigTech. It makes for good headlines but I don’t think it solves much.
  - bobthepanda 5y ago
    This is probably overblown if only because practice has borne out that the Asian platform model has ported very poorly to the US. Americans don't seem to be interested in using massive platform apps that contain the kitchen sink; WeChat is available but not popular, same for LINE, and Messenger never successfully became that. Right now the most successful overseas strategy for a software company has been Tencent's games strategy (as opposed to their WeChat one), and in that respect they're mostly just a holding company.
    - kmeisthax 5y ago
      >Americans don't seem to be interested in using massive platform apps that contain the kitchen sink I mean, Facebook's app is basically exactly that.
      - bobthepanda 5y ago
        And how many young people are using Facebook? Facebook reported declines in daily active users in North America during Q3 2020: https://www.engadget.com/facebook-q3-2020-earnings-204642328.html https://www.engadget.com/facebook-q3-2020-earnings-204642328...
      - mucholove 5y ago
        Dude. It’s a failed kitchen sink. We Chat was both my bank and my Amazon. I kept money on it and was the best way to go to the store. Heck—I even used WeChat as my Uber (Didi) because I didn’t have a Chinese card and the in-app WeChat app balance could pay for my ride.
    - andreilys 5y ago
      Not sure how you were able to miss TikTok which has absolutely blown every other tech co out of the water with respect to stickiness and engagement.
ethbr0 5y ago
It's a valid point. Less so specifically to China, and more so generally to all countries with national champions (e.g. South Korea). In some sense, it's a zero sum game, where if your country don't scale or allow companies to scale, they find the next most favorable country. Or another country's companies succeed because of the additional support provided. But subsidies and government support have always been the biggest fracas in international economic politics for centuries for the same reason. To which I'd reiterate not_exactly__'s point: although business-harmful actions look like shooting yourself in the foot, hampering competition and supporting companies for extraneous reasons ultimately makes your economy and your companies less competitive globally.
- davedx 5y ago
  How is it a zero sum game?
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Edited my post to clarify the language a bit.
- calvinmorrison 5y ago
  Sort of, protonmail or fastmail could get 20 million customers and gmail would be juuust fine.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    But would the NSA and FBI? (Limiting for purposes of discussion to legal, specific subpoenas) General point being that the US government will tend to avoid doing things that are bad for the US government.
ProjectArcturis 5y ago
If we protect out markets from all monopolies, foreign included, we'd end up with tons of competitive companies all scrapping to be the best. Instead what we've got now are monoliths that will gradually ossify into cable-company levels of innovation and customer service. Breaking up domestic monopolies would be one of the best things we could do to compete internationally.
- andreilys 5y ago
  Breaking up domestic monopolies would be one of the best things we could do to compete internationally. International monopolies will be able to expand into the US and burn cash to acquire users and grow market share. Then when they've run all domestic companies out of business, they will raise prices.
  - acituan 5y ago
    US monopolies couldn't penetrate into China without the Chinese government's say so. Xiaomi had its share of US and Indian sanctions (albeit temporarily). The problem is not only competition in US or Chinese as markets; it is also about global markets.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - cercatrova 5y ago
    Why do you assume that the US wouldn't block foreign monopolies as well?
heavyset_go 5y ago
China just fined Alibaba $3 billion for breaking anti-monopoly laws[1]. China also issued new anti-monopoly rules targeting its tech companies[2] in February. Besides, everyone in the US benefits from increased competition between our domestic companies. [1] https://www.npr.org/2021/04/10/986112628/china-fines-alibaba-2-8-billion-for-breaking-anti-monopoly-law https://www.npr.org/2021/04/10/986112628/china-fines-alibaba... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-internet-anti-monopoly/china-issues-new-anti-monopoly-rules-targeting-its-tech-giants-idUSKBN2A70DT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-internet-anti-monop...
- bartimus 5y ago
  I'm speculating: I think China is okay with big monopolies. Just as long as they control them. This particular anti monopoly fine was part of a larger power struggle with Jack Ma: https://www.reuters.com/business/chinas-ant-group-become-financial-holding-company-central-bank-2021-04-12/ https://www.reuters.com/business/chinas-ant-group-become-fin...
nooyurrsdey 5y ago
So we should leave things as they are for our companies to compete with Chinese companies? This just feels like fear mongering. "Don't tamper with what we have now! The other guys will win"
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
vagrantJin 5y ago
So China shouldn't dominate?
yumraj 5y ago
Well China doesn’t let US companies freely do business there, so just block Chinese companies from the US market - that problem is solved. We’re talking regulation here, so that should definitely be on the table.

InvertedRhodium 5y ago

Their services will just be banned and access made difficult enough to dissuade the average person. By that point I'm sure China will have perfected the technology enough that we can just copy them.

bawana 5y ago
If we decimate domestic economic engines, then the internationals will figure out ways to push us into ever deeper economic dependency and subservience. We need the REAL hackers to paralyze monopolies.

not_exactly__ 5y ago

I think it’s a somewhat false dichotomy that splitting up US big tech makes China big tech win. The reason being that splitting up US big tech allow for more competitive US mid tech to arise that can outcompete China big tech in areas where it matters. I suppose you also want to prevent China Big Tech to throw its money around at Mid Tech the way US big tech did in the last 10-15 years.

andreilys 5y ago
Why wouldn't an international tech co just be able to acquire domestic companies and/or launch products at a significant loss to gain market share in the US? For example, break up Amazon and you now create an opening for Alibaba to expand into the US. Spending billions in order to get customers to shift to Alibaba instead of Amazon.
- not_exactly__ 5y ago
  Well that was the gist of my last sentence regarding not letting external Big Tech behave like current Big Tech. ps: fwiw, I’m against breaking up BigTech. It makes for good headlines but I don’t think it solves much.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  This is probably overblown if only because practice has borne out that the Asian platform model has ported very poorly to the US. Americans don't seem to be interested in using massive platform apps that contain the kitchen sink; WeChat is available but not popular, same for LINE, and Messenger never successfully became that. Right now the most successful overseas strategy for a software company has been Tencent's games strategy (as opposed to their WeChat one), and in that respect they're mostly just a holding company.
  - kmeisthax 5y ago
    >Americans don't seem to be interested in using massive platform apps that contain the kitchen sink I mean, Facebook's app is basically exactly that.
    - bobthepanda 5y ago
      And how many young people are using Facebook? Facebook reported declines in daily active users in North America during Q3 2020: https://www.engadget.com/facebook-q3-2020-earnings-204642328.html https://www.engadget.com/facebook-q3-2020-earnings-204642328...
    - mucholove 5y ago
      Dude. It’s a failed kitchen sink. We Chat was both my bank and my Amazon. I kept money on it and was the best way to go to the store. Heck—I even used WeChat as my Uber (Didi) because I didn’t have a Chinese card and the in-app WeChat app balance could pay for my ride.
  - andreilys 5y ago
    Not sure how you were able to miss TikTok which has absolutely blown every other tech co out of the water with respect to stickiness and engagement.

ethbr0 5y ago

It's a valid point. Less so specifically to China, and more so generally to all countries with national champions (e.g. South Korea). In some sense, it's a zero sum game, where if your country don't scale or allow companies to scale, they find the next most favorable country. Or another country's companies succeed because of the additional support provided. But subsidies and government support have always been the biggest fracas in international economic politics for centuries for the same reason. To which I'd reiterate not_exactly__'s point: although business-harmful actions look like shooting yourself in the foot, hampering competition and supporting companies for extraneous reasons ultimately makes your economy and your companies less competitive globally.

davedx 5y ago
How is it a zero sum game?
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Edited my post to clarify the language a bit.
calvinmorrison 5y ago
Sort of, protonmail or fastmail could get 20 million customers and gmail would be juuust fine.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  But would the NSA and FBI? (Limiting for purposes of discussion to legal, specific subpoenas) General point being that the US government will tend to avoid doing things that are bad for the US government.

ProjectArcturis 5y ago

If we protect out markets from all monopolies, foreign included, we'd end up with tons of competitive companies all scrapping to be the best. Instead what we've got now are monoliths that will gradually ossify into cable-company levels of innovation and customer service. Breaking up domestic monopolies would be one of the best things we could do to compete internationally.

andreilys 5y ago
Breaking up domestic monopolies would be one of the best things we could do to compete internationally. International monopolies will be able to expand into the US and burn cash to acquire users and grow market share. Then when they've run all domestic companies out of business, they will raise prices.
- acituan 5y ago
  US monopolies couldn't penetrate into China without the Chinese government's say so. Xiaomi had its share of US and Indian sanctions (albeit temporarily). The problem is not only competition in US or Chinese as markets; it is also about global markets.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- cercatrova 5y ago
  Why do you assume that the US wouldn't block foreign monopolies as well?

heavyset_go 5y ago

China just fined Alibaba $3 billion for breaking anti-monopoly laws[1]. China also issued new anti-monopoly rules targeting its tech companies[2] in February. Besides, everyone in the US benefits from increased competition between our domestic companies. [1] https://www.npr.org/2021/04/10/986112628/china-fines-alibaba-2-8-billion-for-breaking-anti-monopoly-law https://www.npr.org/2021/04/10/986112628/china-fines-alibaba... [2] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-internet-anti-monopoly/china-issues-new-anti-monopoly-rules-targeting-its-tech-giants-idUSKBN2A70DT https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-internet-anti-monop...

bartimus 5y ago
I'm speculating: I think China is okay with big monopolies. Just as long as they control them. This particular anti monopoly fine was part of a larger power struggle with Jack Ma: https://www.reuters.com/business/chinas-ant-group-become-financial-holding-company-central-bank-2021-04-12/ https://www.reuters.com/business/chinas-ant-group-become-fin...

nooyurrsdey 5y ago

So we should leave things as they are for our companies to compete with Chinese companies? This just feels like fear mongering. "Don't tamper with what we have now! The other guys will win"

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

vagrantJin 5y ago

So China shouldn't dominate?

yumraj 5y ago

Well China doesn’t let US companies freely do business there, so just block Chinese companies from the US market - that problem is solved. We’re talking regulation here, so that should definitely be on the table.