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I freaked a bunch of FBI agents out a while back by Base64 encoding a photo of an FBI logo and writing that to the Eth chain. They have massive concerns around

I freaked a bunch of FBI agents out a while back by Base64 encoding a photo of an FBI logo and writing that to the Eth chain. They have massive concerns around this regarding data exfiltration. The cost of removing the data, once written to a chain, is essentially equal to the market cap of the coin for that chain.

CDRdude 5y ago
I don’t understand. Why did this freak out a bunch of FBI agents?
- gninazol 5y ago
  Are you asking why it freaked out real FBI agents or the ones in lozaning's imagination? The FBI doesn't give a single damn hoot about "data exfiltration" via blockchain metadata. Anyone with half an understanding of any of those terms knows what an absurd implication that is. For concerns about "data exfiltration", discussing blockchain doesn't even make a single damn bit of sense. Blockchain is about impermanence and publishing, not about "exfiltration". I'm not sure which is more amusing, thinking that the FBI would give a hoot about b64-encoded data in the metadata of a transaction, or that this person wrote that comment on HN to try and seem cool. LOL, what, the FBI reached out to them (how?/why? nothing about this makes sense)?
- lozaning 5y ago
  Because the data is there _forever_ and there's not really anything they can do about it, which stands in stark contrast to how they're used to operating. There is no person they can throw in jail, no corporation that can be sued, no servers that can be seized, domains taken over, etc, that will result in that data no longer being available to those that know where to look for it. The data just remains online until such a time that the coins of a given chain are worth $0.0 and coin holders no longer have a financial incentive to keep the ledger online. FWIW the ones I talked to where more of the door kicking variety, not the 'cyber' type.
  - int_19h 5y ago
    But why would they freak out about a logo?
    - lozaning 5y ago
      Well I don't have any actual secret bunker blueprints or nuclear submarine specs or w/e. It was an extremely simple PoC where I gave them them an Eth txID and a link to a site like https://base64.guru/converter/decode/image/jpg https://base64.guru/converter/decode/image/jpg The point wasnt that I put their logo on a chain, its that I could put a photo online that the states monopoly on violence was entirely incapable of removing.
- aeturnum 5y ago
  The FBI is used to situations where they can issue targeted takedown orders when groups publish illegal information, but blockchain setups complicate the situation. How does a company "providing" an immutable blockchain stop providing illegal / unlicensed content? Does the fact that their blockchain contains illegal / unlicensed content mean the service is illegal to operate in the US? The alternative is having some sort of legal safe harbor where there is content that, in other circumstances, you would not be allowed to distribute but you can because you are on the blockchain. Lots of distasteful outcomes possible.
dkokelley 5y ago
Another thought experiment: What would happen if someone encoded something horrible and illegal like child porn into a blockchain? Is everyone who operates on that chain guilty of possession? Does that make a specific crypto "illegal" if its blockchain contains illegal content?
- lostmsu 5y ago
  If you extend it wide enough, one should ban natural numbers because some of them in binary form are identical to child pornography video files.
  - dkokelley 5y ago
    Take a look at “illegal numbers” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number Copied from another comment: ======= There’s the concept of “illegal numbers”, which means that there are technically numeric representations of images or copyrighted material that you can’t know/possess without breaking a law. But the law is subjective which is why we have judges and juries to apply judgement to whether having a large number written on a piece of paper is equivalent to possessions illegal material.
  - dorgo 5y ago
    And don't forget random number generators. They are just evil sometimes.
    - ntauthority 5y ago
      It is amazing that the output of a random number generator can be considered a core part of a DMCA-style 'illegal to work around' anti-circumvention solution.
- tick_tock_tick 5y ago
  People already added it into bitcoin if you stretch the definition a bit. As in the bits needed to reconstruct the image exist in the chain.
IncRnd 5y ago
The reason is that it is illegal to use the FBI logo unless authorized to do so.
- the_pwner224 5y ago
  It is not.
  - IncRnd 5y ago
    "It has come to the attention of the FBI that “Fair Use Warnings” accompanied by an image of the FBI seal (or similar insignia) have been posted on various websites, giving the appearance that the FBI has created or authorized these notices to advise the public about the fair use doctrine in U.S. copyright law. The FBI recognizes that the fair use of copyrighted materials, as codified in Title 17, United States Code, section 107, does not constitute infringement. These warnings, however, are not authorized or endorsed by the FBI. Unauthorized use of the FBI seal (or colorable imitations) may be punishable under Title 18 United States Code, Sections 701, 709, or other applicable law." [1] [1] https://www.fbi.gov/history/seal-motto https://www.fbi.gov/history/seal-motto

CDRdude 5y ago

I don’t understand. Why did this freak out a bunch of FBI agents?

gninazol 5y ago
Are you asking why it freaked out real FBI agents or the ones in lozaning's imagination? The FBI doesn't give a single damn hoot about "data exfiltration" via blockchain metadata. Anyone with half an understanding of any of those terms knows what an absurd implication that is. For concerns about "data exfiltration", discussing blockchain doesn't even make a single damn bit of sense. Blockchain is about impermanence and publishing, not about "exfiltration". I'm not sure which is more amusing, thinking that the FBI would give a hoot about b64-encoded data in the metadata of a transaction, or that this person wrote that comment on HN to try and seem cool. LOL, what, the FBI reached out to them (how?/why? nothing about this makes sense)?
lozaning 5y ago
Because the data is there _forever_ and there's not really anything they can do about it, which stands in stark contrast to how they're used to operating. There is no person they can throw in jail, no corporation that can be sued, no servers that can be seized, domains taken over, etc, that will result in that data no longer being available to those that know where to look for it. The data just remains online until such a time that the coins of a given chain are worth $0.0 and coin holders no longer have a financial incentive to keep the ledger online. FWIW the ones I talked to where more of the door kicking variety, not the 'cyber' type.
- int_19h 5y ago
  But why would they freak out about a logo?
  - lozaning 5y ago
    Well I don't have any actual secret bunker blueprints or nuclear submarine specs or w/e. It was an extremely simple PoC where I gave them them an Eth txID and a link to a site like https://base64.guru/converter/decode/image/jpg https://base64.guru/converter/decode/image/jpg The point wasnt that I put their logo on a chain, its that I could put a photo online that the states monopoly on violence was entirely incapable of removing.
aeturnum 5y ago
The FBI is used to situations where they can issue targeted takedown orders when groups publish illegal information, but blockchain setups complicate the situation. How does a company "providing" an immutable blockchain stop providing illegal / unlicensed content? Does the fact that their blockchain contains illegal / unlicensed content mean the service is illegal to operate in the US? The alternative is having some sort of legal safe harbor where there is content that, in other circumstances, you would not be allowed to distribute but you can because you are on the blockchain. Lots of distasteful outcomes possible.

dkokelley 5y ago

Another thought experiment: What would happen if someone encoded something horrible and illegal like child porn into a blockchain? Is everyone who operates on that chain guilty of possession? Does that make a specific crypto "illegal" if its blockchain contains illegal content?

lostmsu 5y ago
If you extend it wide enough, one should ban natural numbers because some of them in binary form are identical to child pornography video files.
- dkokelley 5y ago
  Take a look at “illegal numbers” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illegal_number Copied from another comment: ======= There’s the concept of “illegal numbers”, which means that there are technically numeric representations of images or copyrighted material that you can’t know/possess without breaking a law. But the law is subjective which is why we have judges and juries to apply judgement to whether having a large number written on a piece of paper is equivalent to possessions illegal material.
- dorgo 5y ago
  And don't forget random number generators. They are just evil sometimes.
  - ntauthority 5y ago
    It is amazing that the output of a random number generator can be considered a core part of a DMCA-style 'illegal to work around' anti-circumvention solution.
tick_tock_tick 5y ago
People already added it into bitcoin if you stretch the definition a bit. As in the bits needed to reconstruct the image exist in the chain.

IncRnd 5y ago

The reason is that it is illegal to use the FBI logo unless authorized to do so.

the_pwner224 5y ago
It is not.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  "It has come to the attention of the FBI that “Fair Use Warnings” accompanied by an image of the FBI seal (or similar insignia) have been posted on various websites, giving the appearance that the FBI has created or authorized these notices to advise the public about the fair use doctrine in U.S. copyright law. The FBI recognizes that the fair use of copyrighted materials, as codified in Title 17, United States Code, section 107, does not constitute infringement. These warnings, however, are not authorized or endorsed by the FBI. Unauthorized use of the FBI seal (or colorable imitations) may be punishable under Title 18 United States Code, Sections 701, 709, or other applicable law." [1] [1] https://www.fbi.gov/history/seal-motto https://www.fbi.gov/history/seal-motto