3 ms·

My favourite example of apparently unrelated words with an unexpected common root: "government" and "cybernetics" both come from the Greek "kubernetes" (helmsma

My favourite example of apparently unrelated words with an unexpected common root: "government" and "cybernetics" both come from the Greek "kubernetes" (helmsman).

kortex 5y ago
You start to notice a lot of roots by applying a "toki pona" style phonetic rule: collapse all voiced and unvoiced consonants. Reverse Grimm's law. Th -> t. And then apply Arabic vowels: a, i, u. This is pretty much reversing the most common sound shifts over time. f=v=b=p, g=k, d=t, y=o=u, e=i. Cybernetics -> kupirnitics Government -> kupirnit It's probably also related to "operatus" (Latin for "work", things like cooperate and opera come from it) but I can't find sources. (co)operatus -> (k)upiratus Another example is the famous "father" etymology: Father/vader/pater -> patir (PIE *pH₂tér)
- asveikau 5y ago
  That doesn't seem plausible to me when you consider that opera is the plural of opus. Afaik in early latin, /s/ often went to /r/ when it fell between vowels. That is why it has /s/ in the nominative but /r/ when you start to inflect it with suffices. This happens a lot for third declension nouns where nominative ends in -s (opus is one such example) Other examples of this pattern: Corpus -> corporem (not *corpusem) Venus -> Venerem (not *Venusem) Flos -> florem (not *flosem) Colos -> colorem (not *colosem) Or more simply, we can look at opus and see it comes from a different PIE root from cyber. (When i look it up, the former has a root meaning "work", and the latter has a root meaning "turn")
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    I was under the impression that the underlying /r/ became [s] in the nominative case where it was followed by an /s/, rather than -- as you seem to suggest -- an underlying /s/ becoming [r] when intervocalic.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - stevula 5y ago
      Intervocalic s > r (rhotacism [1]) is a well known phenomenon in early Latin. Any Latin grammar from the last 150 years should mention it. The comparative method proves the original phoneme was /s/ in many cases: generis - compare Greek gene(s)os, Sanskrit janasas jus, juris - compare justitia where the /s/ was not intervocalic robur (archaic robos), roboris - compare robustus The 3rd declension has many s-stems like these though there are some original r-stems also like jecur (< PIE jekwor, compare Greek hepar). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism
- stevula 5y ago
  How do you explain the prefixed form in Latin (co-operatus) corresponding to the root form in other languages? Opus/operis is a productive form on its own in Latin.
asveikau 5y ago
When Latin borrowed the root of "govern" from Greek, it was a nautical term, to steer. We have a tendency to think of "cy" as an S followed by an "ai" diphthong. But if we consider the "c" as a hard /k/ and the "y" as a vowel similar to /u/, there isn't a huge difference between "cyber" and "guber", the latter form showing up in Latin and ultimately in English words like "gubernatorial".

My favourite example of apparently unrelated words with an unexpected common root: "government" and "cybernetics" both come from the Greek "kubernetes" (helmsman).

kortex 5y ago

You start to notice a lot of roots by applying a "toki pona" style phonetic rule: collapse all voiced and unvoiced consonants. Reverse Grimm's law. Th -> t. And then apply Arabic vowels: a, i, u. This is pretty much reversing the most common sound shifts over time. f=v=b=p, g=k, d=t, y=o=u, e=i. Cybernetics -> kupirnitics Government -> kupirnit It's probably also related to "operatus" (Latin for "work", things like cooperate and opera come from it) but I can't find sources. (co)operatus -> (k)upiratus Another example is the famous "father" etymology: Father/vader/pater -> patir (PIE *pH₂tér)

asveikau 5y ago
That doesn't seem plausible to me when you consider that opera is the plural of opus. Afaik in early latin, /s/ often went to /r/ when it fell between vowels. That is why it has /s/ in the nominative but /r/ when you start to inflect it with suffices. This happens a lot for third declension nouns where nominative ends in -s (opus is one such example) Other examples of this pattern: Corpus -> corporem (not *corpusem) Venus -> Venerem (not *Venusem) Flos -> florem (not *flosem) Colos -> colorem (not *colosem) Or more simply, we can look at opus and see it comes from a different PIE root from cyber. (When i look it up, the former has a root meaning "work", and the latter has a root meaning "turn")
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  I was under the impression that the underlying /r/ became [s] in the nominative case where it was followed by an /s/, rather than -- as you seem to suggest -- an underlying /s/ becoming [r] when intervocalic.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - stevula 5y ago
    Intervocalic s > r (rhotacism [1]) is a well known phenomenon in early Latin. Any Latin grammar from the last 150 years should mention it. The comparative method proves the original phoneme was /s/ in many cases: generis - compare Greek gene(s)os, Sanskrit janasas jus, juris - compare justitia where the /s/ was not intervocalic robur (archaic robos), roboris - compare robustus The 3rd declension has many s-stems like these though there are some original r-stems also like jecur (< PIE jekwor, compare Greek hepar). 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rhotacism
stevula 5y ago
How do you explain the prefixed form in Latin (co-operatus) corresponding to the root form in other languages? Opus/operis is a productive form on its own in Latin.

asveikau 5y ago

When Latin borrowed the root of "govern" from Greek, it was a nautical term, to steer. We have a tendency to think of "cy" as an S followed by an "ai" diphthong. But if we consider the "c" as a hard /k/ and the "y" as a vowel similar to /u/, there isn't a huge difference between "cyber" and "guber", the latter form showing up in Latin and ultimately in English words like "gubernatorial".