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A podcast I listen to[0] had a throwaway line that’s stuck with me. I’m not sure if it’s actually correct, this isn’t an area I’m an expert in, but it’s interes

A podcast I listen to[0] had a throwaway line that’s stuck with me. I’m not sure if it’s actually correct, this isn’t an area I’m an expert in, but it’s interesting nonetheless. > Colleges are really just real estate speculation businesses that also incidentally give you a degree in dentistry or whatever. If that’s true, wouldn’t it explain why colleges do things that don’t make sense for education? 0 - Well There’s Your Problem Podcast, Episode 71

whimsicalism 5y ago
I think the type of person who tends to browse HN has a problem with latching on to phrases or ideas that "sound interesting" and then never doing any further research. I think it's where a lot of the rhetoric around 'elite overproduction' comes from. > Colleges are really just real estate speculation businesses that also incidentally give you a degree in dentistry or whatever. Why would that incentivize colleges to enroll more students? How does college as real estate speculation business work?
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  You can disagree with the podcast without attacking me.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    I'm attacking myself as much as you, I have this problematic tendency to latch onto interesting sounding ideas.
    - ChainOfFools 5y ago
      universe is infinite, brains are finite. ergo, brains find compression irresistible, to the point of self-dosing reward juice when a delightful morsel of smartly collapsed reality is encountered. even our signal processing wiring, with each lopsided neuron merging many inputs into a single output, is biased toward obligate compression.
      - v-erne 5y ago
        I believe saying that our mental models are mere models and not reality would be a bit shorter, profound and usefull :)
        ChainOfFools 5y ago
        maybe, but I try to avoid (or at least subordinate) phasing that implies a dualist distinction between the real and the mental. even the 'merest' of mental models is also part of reality, right? such contextualization does indeed impair portability...
        v-erne 5y ago
        >> even the 'merest' of mental models is also part of reality, right? That's quite materialistic take - I think the jury is still out on whether mind is inseparable from material reality (even if we treat it only as an emergent phenomena)
        ChainOfFools 5y ago
        (speaking for myself here) s/materialist/monist, in which everything is considered, not material as such, but rather as emergent phenomena of differentials in causality feedback cycles.
TheOtherHobbes 5y ago
It's a perfect example of incentives being wrong. If you're a huge corporation with land, property, and a tradition of relying on bequests and bloated fees, the reward function will optimise for more land, more property, more bequests, and more fees. The nominal purpose - education - becomes more of a marketing exercise than the primary concern.
rmah 5y ago
The idea that real estate speculation being the baseline goal of universities is funny but doubtful. Instead, consider that survival is almost always one of the main goals of any larger organization. That happens for a variety of personal, individual reasons: job security, reputation halos, personal networks, etc. But in the end, it translates into organizations taking actions simply to survive. And since one of the best ways to survive is to grow, taking actions to grow. This is true for everything from charities that take care of the poor and sick to for-profit corporations to government agencies. And, of course, universities. So why does a university spend a ton of money on renovating their football stadium? Simple, it makes alums happier (more donations), it looks better on televised games (enhanced reputation), etc. It helps the university survive.
- ajmadesc 5y ago
  > The idea that real estate speculation being the baseline goal of universities is funny but doubtful Drexel university is spearheading the gentrification of west Philadelphia. They paid tens of millions for a dirty old tire shop. They require the first three years of your degree to be spent in overpriced uni owned housing. The chancellor makes one of the highest salaries in the us. That's the only example I can really think of

whimsicalism 5y ago

I think the type of person who tends to browse HN has a problem with latching on to phrases or ideas that "sound interesting" and then never doing any further research. I think it's where a lot of the rhetoric around 'elite overproduction' comes from. > Colleges are really just real estate speculation businesses that also incidentally give you a degree in dentistry or whatever. Why would that incentivize colleges to enroll more students? How does college as real estate speculation business work?

ashtonkem 5y ago
You can disagree with the podcast without attacking me.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  I'm attacking myself as much as you, I have this problematic tendency to latch onto interesting sounding ideas.
  - ChainOfFools 5y ago
    universe is infinite, brains are finite. ergo, brains find compression irresistible, to the point of self-dosing reward juice when a delightful morsel of smartly collapsed reality is encountered. even our signal processing wiring, with each lopsided neuron merging many inputs into a single output, is biased toward obligate compression.
    - v-erne 5y ago
      I believe saying that our mental models are mere models and not reality would be a bit shorter, profound and usefull :)
      - ChainOfFools 5y ago
        maybe, but I try to avoid (or at least subordinate) phasing that implies a dualist distinction between the real and the mental. even the 'merest' of mental models is also part of reality, right? such contextualization does indeed impair portability...
        v-erne 5y ago
        >> even the 'merest' of mental models is also part of reality, right? That's quite materialistic take - I think the jury is still out on whether mind is inseparable from material reality (even if we treat it only as an emergent phenomena)
        ChainOfFools 5y ago
        (speaking for myself here) s/materialist/monist, in which everything is considered, not material as such, but rather as emergent phenomena of differentials in causality feedback cycles.

TheOtherHobbes 5y ago

It's a perfect example of incentives being wrong. If you're a huge corporation with land, property, and a tradition of relying on bequests and bloated fees, the reward function will optimise for more land, more property, more bequests, and more fees. The nominal purpose - education - becomes more of a marketing exercise than the primary concern.

rmah 5y ago

The idea that real estate speculation being the baseline goal of universities is funny but doubtful. Instead, consider that survival is almost always one of the main goals of any larger organization. That happens for a variety of personal, individual reasons: job security, reputation halos, personal networks, etc. But in the end, it translates into organizations taking actions simply to survive. And since one of the best ways to survive is to grow, taking actions to grow. This is true for everything from charities that take care of the poor and sick to for-profit corporations to government agencies. And, of course, universities. So why does a university spend a ton of money on renovating their football stadium? Simple, it makes alums happier (more donations), it looks better on televised games (enhanced reputation), etc. It helps the university survive.

ajmadesc 5y ago
> The idea that real estate speculation being the baseline goal of universities is funny but doubtful Drexel university is spearheading the gentrification of west Philadelphia. They paid tens of millions for a dirty old tire shop. They require the first three years of your degree to be spent in overpriced uni owned housing. The chancellor makes one of the highest salaries in the us. That's the only example I can really think of